Alternate Volkswanderung and Later Migrations

Hi! I have posted this thread as a way to collect ideas on how the Germanic migrations could have gone differently for a TL I have very tenatively planned. The PoD is early in the 2nd century (in Germany) and the changes mainly begin in the Third Century for Rome, and has a better-utilized and widespread foederati system, allowing for some pretty crazy ethnic resettlements within the Imperial borders. Please strike down ASB's. Due to plague and famine in the Pre-Migration years, the core area of Roman assimilation will be heavily reduced- Southern/Central France, Northern Spain, Italy and Romania. These ideas cover many, many centuries and so far cover Germanic and Viking migrations.

So far I have:

Vandal Ethiopia- result of Vandal foederati taking over Southern Egypt after the decay of the Tetrarchy system. Vandals have boomed in size due to successful agriculture, and march down into Axum, eventually moving their capital there. The eventual state will have a Vandalo-Ethiopic culture, largely speaking Amharic as the main language. Said state will also be the main Germanic successor state with a navy. The rulers will become native, but I plan to have some Germanic influences stay due to the fractious nature of Ethiopia and Nubia as continual states.

Suehanes in Hispania- Yes, you heard me, Swedes (and some Danes) in Baetica and Lusitania. These people will be unique in clinging to their own spoken language while adopting the Roman alphabet, owing largely to economic factors (Swedish becomes the language of social mobility), Roman depopulation due to plague/famine, and the use of proto-Swedish as a religious language in the Lustenrike.

Pagan Greeks- Yes, the classic ERE scenario will be turned on its head- a new pagan-derived faith will sweep Hellas/Anatolia, and the Roman successor state there will subscribe to said faith.

Gaelic Mesopotamia- An ambitious Hibernian and Caledonian campaign, along with restless tribes and the need for troops leads to Gaelic foederati settling a war-torn, famine-stricken, formerly plague infested Mesopotamia. Prepare to see Irish Manichaeans. I liked the idea of Gaelic foederati, and it always seems that ME just gets lumped into Sassanid and ERE spheres in a post-Roman world. No longer.

Tocharian Northern France- These people move in with the Huns rather than stay in the Tarim Basin, and establish a kingdom in Aremorica before conquering plague-ridden Northern France (if not already basically established, there will be a debilitating plague before the Migrations that kills off good chunks of Roman population in many areas.

Tayfallan Britain- The Tayfals vassalize the Alans and invade Britain. The Taifal kingdom in Eboracum will first conquer Caledonia, then the rest of Brittania, and then the largely depopulated Hibernia. Since the Taifals were thought to be Sarmatic, expect some Persian titles here or there, with some Romanization. The Alans, now Ossetians, speak an East Iranian language.

Albanian Balkans (Below Danube). Encompassing much of what is now Bosnia and Croatia, the Albanians will form their own kingdom, unfettered by the invasions of the Danubian basin. They will be close to the Hellenic empire to their East due to their conversion.

Sklavenoi Italy- Romanized slavs, Slavicized Roman titles, all below the Po. The Western Slavs will be assimilated into the Huns (and conquered by the Germans).

German kingdoms covering Netherlands, Belgium, parts of Northern France, Lombardy above the Po, Switzerland, Bohemia, Austria, and eventually parts of OTL Poland, Danzig, Osel, Kurland and Prussia.

Finns with ships- Finns end up developing longships (after owning much of Scandinavia for a while) and sail to N.A. This Finnish expedition ends up in Northern Canada. While diseases wipe out many Inuit, lack of contact with the southern part of the continent prevents mass outbreaks. More Finns end up going on expedition due to attribution of divinity to the quest, and we end up with isolated Finnuit kingdoms in what is now Alaska. Estonians join towards tail end of this migration, and we have Estkimo tribes in Western Canada. These two groups consolidate into a larger Kingdom encompassing much of the Pacific North-Northwest and OTL Canada. By the time conditions for mass disease occur, the old European immunities have been bred out.


Viking Germany- Norwegians do extremely well conquering Prussians, Danzig, Poznan and Pommerania, along with Northern Germany and Jutland. Large, non-feudal Norse kingdom conquers many smaller Germanic states from Seine to Osel, from Jutland to Po. Basically fill role of Charlemagne, but with a smaller empire and better centralization. No fragmentation.

Russian Scandinavia. The Rodina owns all, the Rodina will conquer. Basically, East Slavs intermarry with remaining Nordic peoples, end up with various small principalities covering OTL Estonia, Kievan Rus, areas with Pagan Fennic tribes, Ukraine and all of Scandinavia (not Jutland, Sjaelland or Jylland- those belong to Viking kingdoms.

Arabs, Visigoths and Roman settlers in OTL Romania- A culture similar to Spanish springs from fusion of Roman settlement, Arab foederati (lots of Bedouin soldiers fighting off the Huns) and Visigoth conquerors.

Galicia as alt-Soissons. Roman culture lives on in Northern Spain and Lusitania as the old Roman culture shifts slowly into a new, non-Classical age.

Hunnic and then Avar Poland-Lithuania. Parts of both OTL states belong to a Hunnic successor state that is eventually conquered and settled by Avars, and then by Seljuq-esque Turkomans.

Anglo-Saxon Aquitainia/Septimania/Ebro March.

Now, I know some of this may be ASB, but the period we are talking about was very, very chaotic, and I think I could try to make these scenarios work. I think the Finns might have to be scrapped, but I really like the idea. I know many OTL tribes are not represented here- these are the eventual results. Many Germanic tribes will just be conquered and eventually assimilated into a larger, pan-German state.
 
Hi! I have posted this thread as a way to collect ideas on how the Germanic migrations could have gone differently for a TL I have very tenatively planned. The PoD is early in the 2nd century (in Germany) and the changes mainly begin in the Third Century for Rome, and has a better-utilized and widespread foederati system, allowing for some pretty crazy ethnic resettlements within the Imperial borders. Please strike down ASB's. Due to plague and famine in the Pre-Migration years, the core area of Roman assimilation will be heavily reduced- Southern/Central France, Northern Spain, Italy and Romania. These ideas cover many, many centuries and so far cover Germanic and Viking migrations.
In general, I think that you're making some fairly grave errors in positing that ethnogenesis for a lot of these groups will happen precisely the same way despite very major and early alterations. You seem to want to have it both ways there: you want people to scour the TL for ASB stuff while obviously launching fairly gratuitous and arguably nonsensical changes.

Historically, the so-called Migration Period did not, in fact, feature more migratory activity than any other period of Roman history (in fact, it may have seen rather less than did the earliest centuries of the empire). The polities that were created as a result of the demise of the empire in the West were not in any real sense influenced by foreign parties. Take the Salian Franks, which, historically, were just "the Roman army on the Loire River"; the army's soldiers, the overwhelming majority of whom were Latin-speaking Gallo-Romans, were already accustomed to a separate identity from the rest of the Roman populace per late imperial practices and deliberately employed "barbarian" symbolism and imagery because "barbarians" were perceived to be warlike badasses. The fact that they identified as Franks is due to the fact that a Salian Frank won a power struggle for control of the army in the 480s, nothing more. I think that that has some fairly important implications for the way you want to do things.

Furthermore, I have my doubts about this "better-utilized and widespread foederati system" you seem to be basing much of this on. What, precisely, are its mechanics, and why does Rome employ an alternate version? Why are these groups retaining their identity over the course of several centuries despite the fact that, historically, comparable groups did no such thing and did a pretty damned good job of assimilation into Roman culture and lifestyle?

Finally, I have to say with respect to some of the more esoteric choices you've got out there (Taifali in Britannia?): good luck finding information on them. I doubt there are enough recorded Taifali names to last a decent TL more than a few decades, let alone a more long-term society.
 
Thank you for the criticism- my ambition tends to outstrip plausibility at times.

The survival of culture: I'm imagining a very swift breakdown of the Roman system so that these separate identities don't really have a chance to lose their form. In OTL, the fall of much of the Western Empire was a slow rot. I'm imagining a fast disembowelment. In short, imagine The Worst Case Scenario: Massive Civil War at the same time as plague (major, bubonic-esque plague), famine, and Parthian resurgence. These crises are only solved by one Kwisatz Haderach emperor who has to use many barbarians as troops. After he dies, the system he creates (Tetrarchy) falls completely apart, and the barbarians that have been used as new soldiers (many Roman ones are dead thanks to long, hard civil war) As a matter of course, I think the foederati system will largely remain the same- these tribes will be vassalized and given land in conquered areas.

You are largely right about the army thing and why these group self-identified as barbarians. However, I imagine this more akin to other historical migrations- not a barbarian overthrow of the Roman armies north of the Loire, for example, but full-on conquest. The foederati system is more prescient in places like Dacia, Southern Egypt, Mesopotamia, and whatnot. Most of these migrations will take place in the Fourth century, but the crises that the empire undergoes will last longer and hit harder.

The Empire will splinter after the Kwisatz Haderach, and this will allow for greater barbarian conquest. Alan and Taifal peoples used in re-conquering a breakaway Brittania will fill the void when Roman control fades in the area. Realistically, it is matter of conquest- the plague that I keep mentioning will be pretty bad. And largely concentrated to the urbanized Empire, staying out of places like Germania and Transarmatica.

As for the foederati, all basically assimilate to Romanization. The Arabs, due to their numbers, largely stay independent, but still Romanize under Visigoth rule. The Visigoths then assimilate to this Romanized Arab culture as well.

The Vandals do not preserve their language or even most of their culture, but rather just a few vestiges here and there. The Swedes are brought in to stop a brutal Berber invasion.

As for the Taifals- I basically threw in the Alans with them because I have lists of Alan names. Basically, while the Taifals "rule" the federation, most of the footsoldiers are Alans.

I already know that I am scrapping the idea for Northern France, the Finns (I think I'll send them East), and Mesopotamia. Those ideas are the most clearly ASB.

Thank you for your criticism sir, and please respond to this so that I can improve my ideas. Thanks!
 
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