Alternate timeline plan, Jewish exodus to Australia fleeing the Romans.

Umm...there were thriving trade routes between India and Roman territory and there was a pretty strong Jewish community in Cochin up to the mid 20th century when they mostly emigrated to Israel.

OP might actually want to do some reading about Jewish presence OTL in the Indian Ocean littoral.

Also people before modern transportation don't just get up and move thousands of miles due to refugee issues. What they usually do (resettlement by an external force aside) is settle down as near as possible to the area they've been displaced from.

Which makes more sense- "hey Avi, my cousin Moishe's settled down in Babylon, why not move there to get away from these horrible Romans" or "Hey Avi, let's get on a ship and head off into the unknown"?

Real people don't act like this. They also don't set up shop in the middle of nowhere with zero links to anywhere they know.

My idea was this group where heading for Yemen due to them being a families with trade links around the Red Sea, so their not stab in the dark as you may be expecting.
 
The Polynesians, as said, took several centuries to achieve settlement of NZ, they also had developed a strong, long distance navigation culture, working with the currents of that part of the Pacific Ocean. It would be very unlikely someone could achieve a pre modern settlement of NZ unless they followed the same general route as the Polynesians.

Australia is slightly more achievable but still seems unlikely, if just for the reason that no one else, closer, did so.

That being said, try and reverse engineer the Austronesian migration to Madagascar and maybe you'll find a way, although this was also generational.

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2012/03/15/rspb.2012.0012
 
For the record, Jews did migrate to India. I am not aware of the numbers, but they have been here since the first temple was destroyed around 586BC and the subsequent exodus of Jews from Palestine. Many more including St. Thomas moved to india after Jesus was executed and the romans put down the revolts.

Bonus fact, western coastal india where the jews settled is one of the few places on the planet where jews were historically not ostracised or persecuted. Well, at least until the Portuguese showed up.

Another fact about the Roman-Indian trade, the Romans traded extensively and directly with Indians. Berenice on the Red Sea was an important port from which around a hundred ships sailed for India every monsoon. Possibly there were roman settlements on the western coast of india.

As for australia, well, India and Asian traders probably knew about australia and had even interbred with the aborigines. This is not a fact i pulled out of my hat, but rather is a result of recent genetic analysis of Australian Aboriginals.

So it may not be completely unrealistic for a group of people from asia to make there way to Australia. People did that on rafts just a few thousand years ago. On a large Roman ship, following the monsoon trade routes and taking adequate stopovers, it is seems quite a lot more possible. They could potentially 'island hop' all the way down to Bali and Sunda on well established and mapped trade routes. From there all it will take is a storm to push them south into the northern territory, Gulf of Carpentaria, or northern part of western australia.

Of course all the other points raised about the technological stagnation and culture etc., might still be true. Also northern australia is not the most likely place to colonise. I mean it's kinda hostile with the flora and fauna and cyclones/typhoons.

Who knows, maybe a bunch of them did make it but died out and now their remains are buried under a parking lot somewhere in Darwin. (jk :p )

As for trade, well it's just 1800 km or something from Darwin to Bali, an important centre of trade. It is it inconceivable that jewish settlers who settled in northern australia will be completely cut off from mainland Asia and the spice trade networks? Maybe technological stagnation is not such a certainty.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
I think you need to make the Jews a migratory people wandering around in South and East Asia for generations, and then by luck stumbling on Australia (even this is hard).
 
It's been done...;)

http://bookofmormonclassics.com/

promised-land.jpg


Best,

Your link caused my mind to reel to the point where it damn near leaked out of my ears. Good. Grief. :eek:
 
Then we are all agreed, time for a collaborative Jewish-Austronesian joint settlement of Madagascar, which somehow ends up with pirates.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Lost Tribes...

Your link caused my mind to reel to the point where it damn near leaked out of my ears. Good. Grief. :eek:

The Lost Tribes - a trope before tropes were cool!;)

Yeah, it's pretty odd, but not any worse than popular concepts of the "mound builders" - meaning the Cahokia, Kaskaskia, and related cultures.

You can see the appeal in a place like the Burned/Burnt Over District.

Millennialism, as well.

Best,
 

Zlorfik

Banned
There already was a community of jews in malacca (by the end of the first milennium IIRC.)

Let's say when portugal takes over they, instead of facing the inquisition, decide to flee southward. They land somewhere in indonesia, but find the environment and the numerous hostile natives intolerable, so they sail further south and stumble upon a relatively nice part of northern Australia.

And there you have it. From then on, they just have to run the colonial establishment gauntlet
 
There already was a community of jews in malacca (by the end of the first milennium IIRC.)

Let's say when portugal takes over they, instead of facing the inquisition, decide to flee southward. They land somewhere in indonesia, but find the environment and the numerous hostile natives intolerable, so they sail further south and stumble upon a relatively nice part of northern Australia.

And there you have it. From then on, they just have to run the colonial establishment gauntlet
That breaks the rules.
 

Zlorfik

Banned
It's a plausible alternative to OP's idea
Also, we can gain several centuries (and lose a little plausibly) by having malacca's native rulers expel the jews early on.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Um, compared to what?

"a relatively nice part of northern Australia."

"...a relatively nice part of northern Australia...."

Um, compared to what? The Sahara?

And your (presumably) settled townspeople from Malacca are going to live, how?

Best,
 

Zlorfik

Banned
"...a relatively nice part of northern Australia...."

Um, compared to what? The Sahara?
not as bad as jakarta
from the perspective of a western settler

And your (presumably) settled townspeople from Malacca are going to live, how?

Best,
Let's say they land at magnetic island.
Plenty of fish and wildlife around. The climate won't kill ya, and the natives are sparse (easily driven off or assimilated). The water will provide natural protection from the larger mainland tribes. The jews soon multiply and get really good at fishing

From then on it's like any other colonial success story. It's not particularly likely, but it passes the plausible mark
 
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Umm...there were thriving trade routes between India and Roman territory and there was a pretty strong Jewish community in Cochin up to the mid 20th century when they mostly emigrated to Israel.

OP might actually want to do some reading about Jewish presence OTL in the Indian Ocean littoral.

Also people before modern transportation don't just get up and move thousands of miles due to refugee issues. What they usually do (resettlement by an external force aside) is settle down as near as possible to the area they've been displaced from.

Which makes more sense- "hey Avi, my cousin Moishe's settled down in Babylon, why not move there to get away from these horrible Romans" or "Hey Avi, let's get on a ship and head off into the unknown"?

Real people don't act like this. They also don't set up shop in the middle of nowhere with zero links to anywhere they know.

So the Jews flee to Parthia/Iranshahr and then get kicked out/flee the Persians. They decide to head East and end up in India.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Whatever the Jewish Malaccans may have been by

not as bad as jakarta from the perspective of a western settler. Let's say they land at magnetic island. Plenty of fish and wildlife around. The climate won't kill ya, and the natives are sparse (easily driven off or assimilated). The water will provide natural protection from the larger mainland tribes. The jews soon multiply and get really good at fishing. From then on it's like any other colonial success story. It's not particularly likely, but it passes the plausible mark

Whatever the Jewish Malaccans may have been by 1500 or whenever the Portuguese (who bring the Inquisition in why, again?) they sure as heck weren't "Western."

And since they reportedly had been there since 1000 CE or so, they presumably are happy enough in Indonesia.

Little less than plausible...

Just go with Lehi and Nephi ... or Prester John.

Or Peachey and Danny.:rolleyes:

Best,
 
So the Jews flee to Parthia/Iranshahr and then get kicked out/flee the Persians. They decide to head East and end up in India.

Like I said, there were already Jews in India. No need for them to flee anyone, they can follow existing trade routes.

The problem I was pointing out is getting them to Australia when this is not how colonisation works.

There already was a community of jews in malacca (by the end of the first milennium IIRC.)

Let's say when portugal takes over they, instead of facing the inquisition, decide to flee southward. They land somewhere in indonesia, but find the environment and the numerous hostile natives intolerable, so they sail further south and stumble upon a relatively nice part of northern Australia.

And there you have it. From then on, they just have to run the colonial establishment gauntlet

In any case, if they've been living in Malacca why would they find the Indonesian islands hostile and have problems with climate?
 
Because way, way beyond their water and food, and which won't be heard for over 1500 years has to be triv.

India, I think'd, is my suggestion. It had good stuff, even democracy. And you can even get there
 

Zlorfik

Banned
Whatever the Jewish Malaccans may have been by 1500 or whenever the Portuguese [...] they sure as heck weren't "Western."
I was imagining the alternate POD, where the malaccans (for whichever reason) kick the jews out early on. At the time they were westerners to the malay

(who bring the Inquisition in why, again?)
Happened in real life.

And since they reportedly had been there since 1000 CE or so, they presumably are happy enough in Indonesia.
Hence our POD
Either the inquisition drives them to leave (instead of assimilate/blend in, like they did in OTL) or the natives kick them out early on

In any case, if they've been living in Malacca why would they find the Indonesian islands hostile and have problems with climate?
The first actual objection so far.
Fair point. So they land in indonesia, and are driven out by other factors.
Local hostility, maybe some tropical disease (more likely to be a problem for them if we choose as our POD a very early malaysian expulsion of the jews)

Anyway, I think this scenario is more plausible than the indian version because it requires just 2-3 steps, whereas the indian version will either have to be ASB or involve more steps than that
 
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Aside from the fact that this sounds eerily similar to my TL (which was mentioned earlier) I agree that Australia is implausible. Madagascar sounds way better, and doesn't involve crossing an ocean. Hell, I considered Madagascar for my TL before settling on New Zealand.
 
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