Alternate timeline plan, Jewish exodus to Australia fleeing the Romans.


New Zealand, as they are entering the promised land. Culture stagnates for several centuries due to lack of bronze, but when iron is discovered, Yisreal (aka "Jew Zealand") begins to advance pretty rapidly. It hasn't gotten much farther that that, but is still active.

That's it! I remembered it was a fairly recent project, and I wasn't finding it in this forum... now I realize it was moved to ASB.
 
I am planning to do an alternate timeline on a group/extended family of Jews fleeing the Romans and by somehow getting western Australia. To make this timeline possible we'll just say they had a lot of luck, and make it to Australia and have the supplies to survive and start agriculture.

First Chapter coming 01/06/15.

Maybe put this on the writers forum. Its extremely unplausable, but not ASB.
 
This is not ASB ... if you precise that it will take generations and that Australia is not the initial destination because nobody in the Mediterranean world had ever heard about Australia at that age. And you can't move several hundreds of thousands of people by a single blink.
 
This is not ASB ... if you precise that it will take generations and that Australia is not the initial destination because nobody in the Mediterranean world had ever heard about Australia at that age. And you can't move several hundreds of thousands of people by a single blink.

I interpreted the OP as being a very small migration (~50 Jews), not a large one.

Even such a small initial population could quickly take over the continent with a high population growth rate, and possible interbreeding with the natives.

Hundreds of thousands of people going to Australia in this era is completely ASB. But just one boat is a different scenario, as if it goes from the right place and gets lucky, there's a chance of it beating the odds and reaching Australia.

Also, I hope that a Jewish-Polynesian syncretic religion will develop in New Zealand.
 
I interpreted the OP as being a very small migration (~50 Jews), not a large one.

Even such a small initial population could quickly take over the continent with a high population growth rate, and possible interbreeding with the natives.

Hundreds of thousands of people going to Australia in this era is completely ASB. But just one boat is a different scenario, as if it goes from the right place and gets lucky, there's a chance of it beating the odds and reaching Australia.

Also, I hope that a Jewish-Polynesian syncretic religion will develop in New Zealand.

Yep a small group no more than 200.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
A 200-strong group is probably too small to prevent

Yep a small group no more than 200.

A 200-strong group is really too small to prevent demographic collapse, certainly in environments as alien and harsh to your posited group of emigrants as the Indian Ocean (much less Austrialia) will be; the survivors either disappear entirely or a few members of the Yuin or Warramunga or whoever end up with minor DNA variations from the Ancient New East/Southwest Asia.

There's a reason Roanoke got lost, much less the Norse colonies in Vinland and southeastern Greenland...

And, to pull it back to the "predecessor" concept I linked to above, that the Jaredites et al had to show up to join the Nephites and Lamanites...;)

Yemen or Ethiopia I could buy, possibly; much south or east just rolls into the realm of fantasy.

And HR Haggard got there a LONG time ago.

Best,
 
A 200-strong group is really too small to prevent demographic collapse, certainly in environments as alien and harsh to your posited group of emigrants as the Indian Ocean (much less Austrialia) will be; the survivors either disappear entirely or a few members of the Yuin or Warramunga or whoever end up with minor DNA variations from the Ancient New East/Southwest Asia.

If they build a single city-state like colony, it may be able to survive with 200. If they were able to bring with them sustainable animals, we could see Australia, develop differently.
 
This is not ASB ... if you precise that it will take generations and that Australia is not the initial destination because nobody in the Mediterranean world had ever heard about Australia at that age. And you can't move several hundreds of thousands of people by a single blink.
Yup. To requote myself:
How did they reach Central America?


Anyway, I also think this is ASB, at least in its current format. The best way to do with I think is to A. have better improvements in naval technology. This would require an earlier POD. Say, the Ptolemies get more interested in the sea trade with India for example, and attempt to set up some trade outposts there (not ASB, Roman and Greek sea merchants did frequent the area). So when the Romans come along, there's a budding network and outposts in India, and naval technology is at least slightly improved.


From there have these Jews decide fleeing to these outposts and setting up proper colonies there is the best course of action. Have them maintain some kind of maritime tradition, and over time expand their connections to Indonesia and from there it wouldn't be too hard for them to discover Australia.
 
If the Polynesians can do it a few millennium before the Jews, I wont say it is completely ASB.
The Polynesians island hopped for decades or centuries; they didn't go to Australia in a single bound.
If they build a single city-state like colony, it may be able to survive with 200. If they were able to bring with them sustainable animals, we could see Australia, develop differently.
200 is still a bit too small to prevent everyone from eventually being forced to inbreed. IIRC you need something like twice that.
 
The Polynesians island hopped for decades or centuries; they didn't go to Australia in a single bound.

200 is still a bit too small to prevent everyone from eventually being forced to inbreed. IIRC you need something like twice that.

As long as they breed plenty, which is common, in a non-contraseption world, the 200 should double in size happily, without the need for inbreeding. There is also the aboriginals, who once converted to Judasim can procreate with the colonist.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
So take your 200...

If they build a single city-state like colony, it may be able to survive with 200. If they were able to bring with them sustainable animals, we could see Australia, develop differently.

So take your 200 shepherds and their families, then ... I am no expert on ANE family size, but presume several extended families of two parents and a half dozen of more children; maybe 20 or 30 family units, if that?

If they are refugees/emigrants, presumably they have some connection in the first place, so there's probably some amount of genetic overlap in terms of where they are coming from - even adding in the servants, sailors, odds and sods who end up coming along by circumstance, it's still a pretty small gene pool.

Then they have to - somehow - cross from SW Asia to (presumably) the Horn of Africa/SE Arabian Peninsula, and then (somehow) cross the entire Indian Ocean with no real knowledge of winds, currents, tides, etc.

Then they have to land on a west-facing shore known today as fairly unfriendly to mariners, and which - by the way - fronts some fairly inhospitable desert.

And the fertile spots, are already inhabited by people who are tough, well-adapted to their environment, and know the country.

My guess is the percentage of your 200 who survive (how many months?) of travel and then actually get ashore may be ten percent, or less.

The survivors are promptly picked off by the locals, since the voyagers a) have nothing to trade, and b) know zip about the local country, terrain, etc.

Several hundred years later, when the English or French or Dutch or whoever are exploring, they may note the Yuin or Arunta or whoever have some interesting myths about travelers from the West showing up in the past, but that's about it.

I mean, really, this makes Joseph Smith's version of the settling of the Americas sound rational. At least he came up with multiple waves of Jewish refugees... who all ended up in the Yucatan, somehow.;)

Cripes, Wilbur Smith's refugee Carthaginians as Boer precursors in the Orange River (complete with proto-Marxist revolutionaries) is slightly more believable.

Best,
 
Last edited:

TFSmith121

Banned
UM, why in the world would any self-respecting Arunta or Kurnai

As long as they breed plenty, which is common, in a non-contraseption world, the 200 should double in size happily, without the need for inbreeding. There is also the aboriginals, who once converted to Judasim can procreate with the colonist.

Um, why in the world would any self-respecting Arunta or Kurnai see any need to listen to a handful of half-drowned losers?

Cripes, hack them down and steal their women and be done with it.:rolleyes:

With all due respect, this sounds a fair bit like Peachy and Daniel and the Kafiristanis, except with Lehi and Nephi as the protagonists.

Like I said, it's been done before...repeatedly, in fact.

Best,
 
Um, why in the world would any self-respecting Arunta or Kurnai see any need to listen to a handful of half-drowned losers?

Cripes, hack them down and steal their women and be done with it.:rolleyes:

With all due respect, this sounds a fair bit like Peachy and Daniel and the Kafiristanis, except with Lehi and Nephi as the protagonists.

Like I said, it's been done before...repeatedly, in fact.

Best,

Yep.
To the purposes of the OP, Australia is not clean slate. 200 (at most) jewish refugees will not produce a Jewish Australia half a millennium later. They will, at most, introduce some reorganized Jewish cultural element among the Aboriginal cultures, and some genetic imprint*. They need a place that is not inhabited, or very sparsely so (more than Australia, I mean). Madagascar seems to fit the OP purposes better. Perhaps the Mascarenes?
*Interestingly, circumcision was widespread among native Australians. It could induce the incoming Jews to see the locals somewhat positively, which should help them immensely. As in, immediate conflict with the likely death of most fighting age males in the refugee group is not the only possible outcome.
 
Yep.
To the purposes of the OP, Australia is not clean slate. 200 (at most) jewish refugees will not produce a Jewish Australia half a millennium later. They will, at most, introduce some reorganized Jewish cultural element among the Aboriginal cultures, and some genetic imprint*. They need a place that is not inhabited, or very sparsely so (more than Australia, I mean). Madagascar seems to fit the OP purposes better. Perhaps the Mascarenes?
*Interestingly, circumcision was widespread among native Australians. It could induce the incoming Jews to see the locals somewhat positively, which should help them immensely. As in, immediate conflict with the likely death of most fighting age males in the refugee group is not the only possible outcome.

I dont plan for this group to control all of Australia instead a certain portion, but I do want to explore the idea that the aboriginals adapting certain elements of European civilisation eg agriculture from the crops these Jews bring and maybe start a tribal nations similar to the ones in Africa.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
What's interesting about this is the "BLANK saviour"

Yep.
To the purposes of the OP, Australia is not clean slate. 200 (at most) jewish refugees will not produce a Jewish Australia half a millennium later. They will, at most, introduce some reorganized Jewish cultural element among the Aboriginal cultures, and some genetic imprint*. They need a place that is not inhabited, or very sparsely so (more than Australia, I mean). Madagascar seems to fit the OP purposes better. Perhaps the Mascarenes?
*Interestingly, circumcision was widespread among native Australians. It could induce the incoming Jews to see the locals somewhat positively, which should help them immensely. As in, immediate conflict with the likely death of most fighting age males in the refugee group is not the only possible outcome.

What's interesting about this is the "BLANK saviour" idea is pretty old, in its own right, going (at least) all the way back to the Prester John or the Alexander romances.

There's a reason "The Man Who Would be King" resonates; it is something of an archetype.

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Whatever else they might be, the

I dont plan for this group to control all of Australia instead a certain portion, but I do want to explore the idea that the aboriginals adapting certain elements of European civilisation eg agriculture from the crops these Jews bring and maybe start a tribal nations similar to the ones in Africa.

Whatever else they might be, the peoples of SW Asia are not 'European"...

There are other possibilities for widespread agricultural packages in Australia from places a lot closer; there are even a few explorations of such on this very site...

Best,
 
There should be a different destination first. Like say, the Seychelles or Comoros. It's a small group so it has no need for a huge territory. And then maybe decades later, have some kind of problem, like an epidemic, that forces them to move again, but maybe they can't settle in Madagascar or mainland Africa for whatever reason, so they head east . . . and end up in Australia.
 
India is a possibility however. A Roman-era ship could probably reach India by accident.

Umm...there were thriving trade routes between India and Roman territory and there was a pretty strong Jewish community in Cochin up to the mid 20th century when they mostly emigrated to Israel.

OP might actually want to do some reading about Jewish presence OTL in the Indian Ocean littoral.

Also people before modern transportation don't just get up and move thousands of miles due to refugee issues. What they usually do (resettlement by an external force aside) is settle down as near as possible to the area they've been displaced from.

Which makes more sense- "hey Avi, my cousin Moishe's settled down in Babylon, why not move there to get away from these horrible Romans" or "Hey Avi, let's get on a ship and head off into the unknown"?

Real people don't act like this. They also don't set up shop in the middle of nowhere with zero links to anywhere they know.
 
Top