Alternate Sites of Industry and the Resources Required

It's an often talked about idea for alternate sites of industrial revolution (normally China, but others are discussed), but what isn't mentioned is where they get the material. Europe is exceptionally rich in coal and not too bad for iron, and the American east is similarly endowed. What of other places. Would an industrial revolution in the Middle East be able to use oil to fuel itself, or is there enough coal present in the area? What of China or India? Both are major coal producers today, but is that coal accessible to an early industrialising nation?
 
With India coal is a problem- it has large deposits but (a)these aren't easily accessible in bulk without existing industrial technology, meaning that any Indian industrial effort would initially falter for lack of coal or have to rely on imported coal and (b) the coal deposits are mainly brown coal which isn't quite as useful as anthracite.
 
With India coal is a problem- it has large deposits but (a)these aren't easily accessible in bulk without existing industrial technology, meaning that any Indian industrial effort would initially falter for lack of coal or have to rely on imported coal and (b) the coal deposits are mainly brown coal which isn't quite as useful as anthracite.

India does however have significant water power which could compensate somewhat until others take up industrial production and the Indians start getting coal from them.
 
Coal was a source of energy in pre-industrial China (as described by Marco Polo in the 13th Century), especially in the mountains of Shanxi/Shaanxi. The problem is that the most developed parts of China were in the Yangtze Delta, some 1000 km away; and the major areas of steel production were in Hankou, 500 km away (the Hankou region does have some coal, however). Beijing is around 250 km away, with few riverine connections.

We have to remember, however, that the Shanxi region in Ming and Qing times was China's banking capital, so it is not inconceivable that industrialization could have happened there as well, with rich bankers providing capital for industrial production.

Now the Grand Canal running North-South from Kaifeng to Yangzhou can help matters - but only to an extent. There is an argument that the economically developed areas of premodern China were too efficient, and labor costs too low to justify any of the industrial inventions that later happened in Europe. In such a case, the cost of having to transport all that coal south would provide a near-insurmountable barrier to early industrialization.
 
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Ok just as a random idea. Could an organized Musilim Kingdom in Mindanao industrialise. They island has coal iron and water power plus if a ruler wanted to knocking over pre Spanish Luzon for a agricultural base wouldn't be to difficult. The main difficulty i can see is timing. This all has to happen before the Spanish arrive and long enough before that when the Spanish rock up they see it more as a actual nation rather than terra nullius.
 
How many people lived in the Philippines before the Spanish colonization? You do need a certain density of population before industrialization becomes viable.

I think if trade relations with Brunei and Malacca grew stronger, the impetus for industrialization might come. But I don't think it's possible to have Mindanao industrialize before Europeans arrive.
 
India does however have significant water power which could compensate somewhat until others take up industrial production and the Indians start getting coal from them.

Only in very specific places- Kerala is great for water power as are part of the Himalayan foothills and the Vindhyas.

The rest...not so much.

Also, while water power works for cottage industries and such (which India had a plethora of before the EIC took over), it's not quite enough to make a full revolution.
 
Ok just as a random idea. Could an organized Musilim Kingdom in Mindanao industrialise. They island has coal iron and water power plus if a ruler wanted to knocking over pre Spanish Luzon for a agricultural base wouldn't be to difficult. The main difficulty i can see is timing. This all has to happen before the Spanish arrive and long enough before that when the Spanish rock up they see it more as a actual nation rather than terra nullius.

Population is way too sparse. Java is your best bet (massive population, highly developed state societies) although I'm not sure if it has coal reserves.
 
Population is way too sparse. Java is your best bet (massive population, highly developed state societies) although I'm not sure if it has coal reserves.

No it dosnt but i think Borneo does. if population is an issue could a more powerful Brunei pull it off. Brunei city is big and if it expands along the north coast by annexing Sarawak it has additional population and the resources it needs. Is it still to small to do it properly though
 
No it dosnt but i think Borneo does. if population is an issue could a more powerful Brunei pull it off. Brunei city is big and if it expands along the north coast by annexing Sarawak it has additional population and the resources it needs. Is it still to small to do it properly though

This also depends on where the deposits are- if they're in the interior, they likely going to be almost totally inaccessible without modern technology.
 

katchen

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Lliaonng has a wonderful juxtaposition of iron at Anshan and coal at Fushun, both near Mukden (Shenyang) and both near the Pohai Gulf. Lliaoning has a predominantly Chinese population but often ruled by foreigners even where no dynasty can come and govern them from China. If the Manchus can't control China, they can at least control Manchuria, And silk can be grown from worms in Llioatung. So an industrial revolution near Shenyang (Mukdent).
 
This also depends on where the deposits are- if they're in the interior, they likely going to be almost totally inaccessible without modern technology.
It's in the interior all-right; my father the bush pilot's done some work there deep in the woods, managing the airfields and their approach plans. Considering the coal's been there for quite a while now but it's only recently getting exploited (and I'm using exploited in the worst possible definition, it's really messing up the environment), I doubt it is very accessible with more primitive technology.
 
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