Alternate Silk: Is the Mulberry Silkworm really the only plausible silk-producing domesticate?

There’s apparently quite a variety of silk-producing insects with a very wide distribution. Most of them produce silk for their cocoons when undergoing complete metamorphosis, but raspy crickets produce silk for their shelters. I have read that the latest evidence for the domestication of silkworms tells us that it happened some 5,000 years ago, but Chinese silk didn’t start to reach Europe until the days of the Roman Empire.

What if the Europeans began cultivating their own silk independently before they ever knew about Chinese silk? What species do you find the most likely for this, and why? Also, what effect does this have on East-West interactions down the line?
 
Pretty much any caterpillar could be used in this, provided that the caterpillar produces silk. Saturnia pyri, the giant peacock moth, is one example of a lepidoptera that produces silk for a cocoon, added to this is the sheer size of the larva, up to 10cm long. A lot of silk. I don't know if the silk from this cocoon could be used for a shirt, but I have found nothing saying it explicitly couldn't. This moth is found in southern Europe today, but at the time of the silk trade, they existed in northern France, the Netherlands and even southern England.

The other option is sea shells. In the Oddyssy, silk is mentioned as being harvested from a sea shell. I don't know if this is possible at all, but it is mentioned.
 
Coa vestis, Mediterranean silk from the island of Kos existed in OTL.

"Coa vestis is an ancient type of fabric named after its point of origin, the Greek island Kos.

Coa vestis was made by the wild silk of Pachypasa otus, a Mediterranean moth.Aristotle first mentioned coa vestis in the 4th century BC.
The elder Pliny reported Pamphila of Kos, daughter of Plateas, discovered the secret of silk manufacture.

After the 1st century AD the coa vestis was gradually superseded by Chinese silk, which was superior in quality. "

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coa_vestis
 
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The other option is sea shells. In the Oddyssy, silk is mentioned as being harvested from a sea shell. I don't know if this is possible at all, but it is mentioned.

Sea Silk certainly existed:

Knitted glove made of sea silk, from Taranto, Italy, probably from the late 19th century

Pinna nobilis shell and byssus

Photo showing extreme fineness of the byssus thread

Sea silk is an extremely fine, rare, and valuable fabric that is made from the long silky filaments or byssus secreted by a gland in the foot of pen shells (in particular Pinna nobilis).The byssus is used by the clam to attach itself to the sea bed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_silk
 
Coa vestis, Mediterranean silk from the island of Kos existed in OTL.

"Coa vestis is an ancient type of fabric named after its point of origin, the Greek island Kos.

Coa vestis was made by the wild silk of Pachypasa otus, a Mediterranean moth.Aristotle first mentioned coa vestis in the 4th century BC.
The elder Pliny reported Pamphila of Kos, daughter of Plateas, discovered the secret of silk manufacture.

After the 1st century AD the coa vestis was gradually superseded by Chinese silk, which was superior in quality. "

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coa_vestis

What about webspinners? They certainly produce quite a bit of silk to build their little tunnel systems, and Wikipedia at least suggested that their silk is similar in structure to Chinese silk. Wouldn’t it be as simple as coming in periodically and demolishing their webs so as to facilitate constant production of new tunnel systems for shelter?
 
Effects on patterns of trade depend entirely on quality; if your West Eurasian group is stuck with an inferior quality product (perhaps the domesticated species is not so good for it), you're still going to get trade patterns for it like today, while the reverse might happen if you reverse the quality.

Also depends on where it happens; Europe might go to sericulture from wild silks, but why not an early civilization in West Asia or Pakistan? Indus Valley Culture is comparable to Chinese contemporaries in use of wild silk.

(I always wonder why sericulture spreads out so late from China. It's supposed to be a neolithic process, pre-Bronze Age, but is quite late even to spread to Korea and Japan. There's some talk of a state suppressing the secret of sericulture, but it's quite hard to believe that can go back to this time depth).
 
Effects on patterns of trade depend entirely on quality; if your West Eurasian group is stuck with an inferior quality product (perhaps the domesticated species is not so good for it), you're still going to get trade patterns for it like today, while the reverse might happen if you reverse the quality.

Sea silk, the silk of giant peacock moths (the aforementioned Saturnia pyri), and the silk of web spinners appears to be pretty high quality.

Also depends on where it happens; Europe might go to sericulture from wild silks, but why not an early civilization in West Asia or Pakistan? Indus Valley Culture is comparable to Chinese contemporaries in use of wild silk.

I had considered that, specifically in Transoxiana or Iran, and that might still be on the table. My timeline, Not My Heifer, focuses on a more thorough Indo-Europeanization of the Middle East and Central Asia, so I guess I was kind of interested in something developing on the far edges of Europe, particularly Iberia or France, that could bring trade in that direction, since certain agricultural developments are going to take quite a bit longer to spread in Europe without Indo-Europeans. This would make for an interesting interchange, especially if the development of domesticated sericulture were to happen in say, in central Iberia, far away from the reach of the Mediterranean, or maybe up in Austria. Austria might very well facilitate the development of a Danubian route that would bring silk from the heart of Europe to the Middle East by way of the Black Sea, which could be interesting. Conversely, Iberian silk would spur a lot more interest on the part of city-states in Anatolia, the Levant, and the Balkans in the Western Mediterranean a lot sooner. Whoever controls access to the Western Med would essentially control the silk trade until a terrestrial route is developed, which would make for good reason for any aspiring power in say Italy to invade France, if they can't conquer Iberia proper.

(I always wonder why sericulture spreads out so late from China. It's supposed to be a neolithic process, pre-Bronze Age, but is quite late even to spread to Korea and Japan. There's some talk of a state suppressing the secret of sericulture, but it's quite hard to believe that can go back to this time depth).

I have trouble believing that as well, at least until say, the Shang dynasty or the Qin. I can definitely see the suppression of it under the legalist philosophy of the Qin dynasty and perhaps the Han as well.
 
Effects on patterns of trade depend entirely on quality; if your West Eurasian group is stuck with an inferior quality product (perhaps the domesticated species is not so good for it), you're still going to get trade patterns for it like today, while the reverse might happen if you reverse the quality.

Also depends on where it happens; Europe might go to sericulture from wild silks, but why not an early civilization in West Asia or Pakistan? Indus Valley Culture is comparable to Chinese contemporaries in use of wild silk.

(I always wonder why sericulture spreads out so late from China. It's supposed to be a neolithic process, pre-Bronze Age, but is quite late even to spread to Korea and Japan. There's some talk of a state suppressing the secret of sericulture, but it's quite hard to believe that can go back to this time depth).

My understanding is China wasn’t aware of civilizations outside of China until they searched west for allies against the Xiongnu in the 2nd Century BC. At this time Korea was still transitioning from semi-nomadic ironage tribes to a loose central authority, like the Irish during the Viking Age. Japan had only recently became agriculturalists.

Sea silk seems like a good idea, but it’s likely uncompetitive to silkworms since the market became dominated by imports when domestic alternative was available. A few years ago a dress was made from the silk of golden orb weaver spiders. But farming, harvesting, manufacturing spider silk is unlikely to be economical.
 
In highland Madagascar people tend tapia trees with fire to increase production of leaves for native silk moths without specifically breeding them.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08873630209478290?journalCode=rjcg20

Also you don't even need to domesticate all the insects that produce silk

This
one_of_a_kind_golden_gown_made_of_spider_silk_yatzer.jpg
Was made from thousands of caught and released spiders over a number of years.

Anything can be domesticated, only somethings are worth the effort.
 
Coa vestis, Mediterranean silk from the island of Kos existed in OTL.

"Coa vestis is an ancient type of fabric named after its point of origin, the Greek island Kos.

Coa vestis was made by the wild silk of Pachypasa otus, a Mediterranean moth.Aristotle first mentioned coa vestis in the 4th century BC.
The elder Pliny reported Pamphila of Kos, daughter of Plateas, discovered the secret of silk manufacture.

After the 1st century AD the coa vestis was gradually superseded by Chinese silk, which was superior in quality. "

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coa_vestis

The issue with these is the limited amount of silk one silkworm can produce. They are smaller than even wild Asian and African species.
 
Pretty much any caterpillar could be used in this, provided that the caterpillar produces silk. Saturnia pyri, the giant peacock moth, is one example of a lepidoptera that produces silk for a cocoon, added to this is the sheer size of the larva, up to 10cm long. A lot of silk. I don't know if the silk from this cocoon could be used for a shirt, but I have found nothing saying it explicitly couldn't. This moth is found in southern Europe today, but at the time of the silk trade, they existed in northern France, the Netherlands and even southern England.

The other option is sea shells. In the Oddyssy, silk is mentioned as being harvested from a sea shell. I don't know if this is possible at all, but it is mentioned.

Right, I was unable to turn anything up on the Giant Peacock Moth's silk besides the repeated claim that its cocoons are used to make a "high quality silk". Do you have any info on this moth and its silk that you were able to turn up on your own?

The issue with these is the limited amount of silk one silkworm can produce. They are smaller than even wild Asian and African species.

This is why I was thinking of some species of webspinner or perhaps the aforementioned Giant Peacock Moth. The more I think about it, the more I think I'm interested in Iberia being the place that silk is made, probably some time during the Middle Bronze Age. What do you think the long term effects here would be on international trade? I for one was thinking that it might cause something of a divide in the Middle East between different markets, with the Levant and Anatolia being more focused on getting their silk from Iberia while the Iranian Plateau/Central Asia would focus more on trade with China.
 
Right, I was unable to turn anything up on the Giant Peacock Moth's silk besides the repeated claim that its cocoons are used to make a "high quality silk". Do you have any info on this moth and its silk that you were able to turn up on your own?

Sorry, I only know about them from seeing them in my garden. I think they could be a viable silk production candidate though.

Iberia could be a good place, but Italy would probably overtake them in the Roman period, and especially when the Catholic church takes over. Silk will probably have a deeply significant religious meaning for Christians, it already has a certain level of importance to Muslims. Either way, it would likely be that Catalonia would be the major silk production centre, the Mediterranean access and more stable weather systems make it a better breeding ground for them.
 
Right, I was unable to turn anything up on the Giant Peacock Moth's silk besides the repeated claim that its cocoons are used to make a "high quality silk". Do you have any info on this moth and its silk that you were able to turn up on your own?



This is why I was thinking of some species of webspinner or perhaps the aforementioned Giant Peacock Moth. The more I think about it, the more I think I'm interested in Iberia being the place that silk is made, probably some time during the Middle Bronze Age. What do you think the long term effects here would be on international trade? I for one was thinking that it might cause something of a divide in the Middle East between different markets, with the Levant and Anatolia being more focused on getting their silk from Iberia while the Iranian Plateau/Central Asia would focus more on trade with China.

pyri_ppe.jpg


Silk from this wouldn't be high quality

Compare to the inside of a wild African silk moth
Wild-silk-cocoons-called-tuntun-de-inside-of-cocoon-collected-in-Ghana.png


Silk is gonna have to be so rare and sought after that they would willingly go through great lengths for the smallest of garments.
 
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Sorry, I only know about them from seeing them in my garden. I think they could be a viable silk production candidate though.

Iberia could be a good place, but Italy would probably overtake them in the Roman period, and especially when the Catholic church takes over. Silk will probably have a deeply significant religious meaning for Christians, it already has a certain level of importance to Muslims. Either way, it would likely be that Catalonia would be the major silk production centre, the Mediterranean access and more stable weather systems make it a better breeding ground for them.

Well, the POD for my timeline took place around 3500 BC, so... no Rome, no Christians, no Catholics, no Muslims.

I’m jealous of you, though. I have a thing for moths. Have you ever seen their cocoons? If so, how did they feel? The material feel like it was going to be easy to work with, or no?

pyri_ppe.jpg


Silk from this wouldn't be high quality

Compare to the inside of a wild African silk moth
Wild-silk-cocoons-called-tuntun-de-inside-of-cocoon-collected-in-Ghana.png


Silk is gonna have to be so rare and sought after that they would willingly go through great lengths for the smallest of garments.

Yeah, I could only find a claim that their cocoons produce high quality silk, but no logistical material. What about webspinners’ silk? That appears to be very fine, and they produce it in large quantities, but is it too fine to weave?
 
Sea silk, the silk of giant peacock moths (the aforementioned Saturnia pyri), and the silk of web spinners appears to be pretty high quality.
I looked at a wide variety of potential alternative slk-producing domesticates in the process of writing Lands of Red and Gold. There are potential alternative domesticates out there (@Revachah has already suggested a couple), but webspinners are not among them. The silk fibres they produce are much, much thinner than those of silk moths. While they are about as strong as silk moth fibres for comparable thickness, due to the thinness of the fibre they would be impractical to weave and break too readily to be a viable silk alternative.

I'm still looking for a viable alternative domesticate for silk within Australia, so will watch this thread with interest to see whether there's anything around which could be domesticated and produce a sufficient supply of comparable silk. (There are sea silk-producing relatives in Oz but I don't think that they could produce it in sufficient quantity to be a viable option).
 
I looked at a wide variety of potential alternative slk-producing domesticates in the process of writing Lands of Red and Gold. There are potential alternative domesticates out there (@Revachah has already suggested a couple), but webspinners are not among them. The silk fibres they produce are much, much thinner than those of silk moths. While they are about as strong as silk moth fibres for comparable thickness, due to the thinness of the fibre they would be impractical to weave and break too readily to be a viable silk alternative.

I'm still looking for a viable alternative domesticate for silk within Australia, so will watch this thread with interest to see whether there's anything around which could be domesticated and produce a sufficient supply of comparable silk. (There are sea silk-producing relatives in Oz but I don't think that they could produce it in sufficient quantity to be a viable option).

I did some more checking around today. I was able to turn up two references to silk being spun from Saturnia pyri's cocoons, here and here. The first link states that a "high quality silk" has been made from the cocoons, while the second states that silk has been spun, but "not commercially". This link states that the fibers of Greek moths would produce a rougher silk, but it names three species in three genera and doesn't specify which one makes this "rougher" silk... or if it's referring to all of them. This similarly just mentions that silk from this species "has been established". This link tells us that the fibers are intermediate in quality between common silk and wild silks from East Asia.

So, we know that it's at least possible, but there's a couple of problems with it just looking at the photos. For one, the threads are kind of dark. Now, apparently feeding the caterpillars different things and different points in their lifecycle can affect the color, so I'll have to do some more reading here on what is available and what colors it would produce, but we also might try developing a means of bleaching that doesn't damage the cloth, perhaps a recipe similar to what the Dutch came up with during the Medieval Period. That wouldn't even have to be original to the silk weavers, though. I see no reason why silk can't be made under a strict trade secret in one place and then shipped somewhere else for bleaching. The Dutch were masters of bleaching for centuries because of their secret recipe, or so I have read. For two though, the problem of the shortness of the threads seems apparent in some, but not all of the photos I've seen of the cocoons. Might this be something that's taken care of over time through selective breeding? I was looking at some photos of cocoons used for tussah silk, and they don't look entirely that much more sophisticated.

Even if we can't get something as high quality as what's coming out of China, if the Iberians can monopolize the market in the Mediterranean by the Late Bronze Age, does it really matter? I don't see it really mattering, at that point. There will be an established, multi-layered market with a lot of fingers in the pie by the time the Chinese start making contact with the Middle East. I think that Chinese silk would eventually win out over Iberian silk in the long run, but that process might be very slow, especially in Western Europe, where silk would be traded along the Atlantic Coast from a very early period.
 
I did some more checking around today. I was able to turn up two references to silk being spun from Saturnia pyri's cocoons, here and here. The first link states that a "high quality silk" has been made from the cocoons, while the second states that silk has been spun, but "not commercially". This link states that the fibers of Greek moths would produce a rougher silk, but it names three species in three genera and doesn't specify which one makes this "rougher" silk... or if it's referring to all of them. This similarly just mentions that silk from this species "has been established". This link tells us that the fibers are intermediate in quality between common silk and wild silks from East Asia.

So, we know that it's at least possible, but there's a couple of problems with it just looking at the photos. For one, the threads are kind of dark. Now, apparently feeding the caterpillars different things and different points in their lifecycle can affect the color, so I'll have to do some more reading here on what is available and what colors it would produce, but we also might try developing a means of bleaching that doesn't damage the cloth, perhaps a recipe similar to what the Dutch came up with during the Medieval Period. That wouldn't even have to be original to the silk weavers, though. I see no reason why silk can't be made under a strict trade secret in one place and then shipped somewhere else for bleaching. The Dutch were masters of bleaching for centuries because of their secret recipe, or so I have read. For two though, the problem of the shortness of the threads seems apparent in some, but not all of the photos I've seen of the cocoons. Might this be something that's taken care of over time through selective breeding? I was looking at some photos of cocoons used for tussah silk, and they don't look entirely that much more sophisticated.

Even if we can't get something as high quality as what's coming out of China, if the Iberians can monopolize the market in the Mediterranean by the Late Bronze Age, does it really matter? I don't see it really mattering, at that point. There will be an established, multi-layered market with a lot of fingers in the pie by the time Chinese start making contact with the Middle East. I think that Chinese silk would eventually win out over Iberian silk in the long run, but that process might be very slow, but the takeover I think would be slow, especially in Western Europe, where silk would be traded along the Atlantic Coast.

All the Greek moths produced short fibre strands which meant that the silk would be thicker. It was basically like eri silk and is characteristic of the family.

With Saturnia you have to be weary of these old statements as with the case of wild foods is kinda repested over and over decade after decade with little verification.

This is silk of the Greek moths it last luster and doesn't seem to have the same texture as standard silks which will mean the market for actual silk won't be challenged

image.jpg


But I mean this is ATL with enough attention early on any ATL silk moths can become domesticated and produce whatever you need.
 
All the Greek moths produced short fibre strands which meant that the silk would be thicker. It was basically like eri silk and is characteristic of the family.

With Saturnia you have to be weary of these old statements as with the case of wild foods is kinda repested over and over decade after decade with little verification.

This is silk of the Greek moths it last luster and doesn't seem to have the same texture as standard silks which will mean the market for actual silk won't be challenged

image.jpg


But I mean this is ATL with enough attention early on any ATL silk moths can become domesticated and produce whatever you need.

Which Greek moths? That's my problem. Is it all of them including Saturnia pyri? I also imagine there's a little bit of variation between populations in terms of cocoon quality. But, I think you're right. My POD is 5,500 years ago, and in that time I should be able to justify the butterflies of an alternate Indo-European migration making their way out to Iberia with enough time to come up with a finer silk through selective breeding ("Say! This is a really nice cocoon! It's so soft! And look at those fibers. We're not boiling this one. Nope! This one gets to breed!").
 
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