Alternate Shogunates

Which shogunate is interesting to you?


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You can only form a shogunate if you are of Minamoto descent,so most of the clans wouldn't form any shogunates.Nonetheless,Oda rule( they aren't Minamoto,they are Taira,hence no Shogunate),would be quite interesting.
 
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You can only form a shogunate if you are of Minamoto descent,so most of the clans wouldn't form any shogunates.Nonetheless,Oda rule( they aren't Minamoto,they are Taira,hence no Shogunate),would be quite interesting.
I can't imagine this would be an obstacle if any strong-willed leader from a non-Minamoto clan really wanted to be Shogun. After all, Hideyoshi wasn't born into the Fujiwara family, yet he became Kampaku. If somebody with Oda Nobunaga's determination and cunning managed to unify all of Japan, who would stop him if he declared himself Shogun, regardless of his heritage?
 
I can't imagine this would be an obstacle if any strong-willed leader from a non-Minamoto clan really wanted to be Shogun. After all, Hideyoshi wasn't born into the Fujiwara family, yet he became Kampaku. If somebody with Oda Nobunaga's determination and cunning managed to unify all of Japan, who would stop him if he declared himself Shogun, regardless of his heritage?

You can't declare yourself Shogun. Only the Imperial court/Emperor can appoint someone to that position. Remember Hideyoshi didn't declare himself Kampaku, he had himself adopted by one of the Regent houses then made Chief minister. Chances are Oda would force a Minamoto clan to adopt him, then be proclaimed Shogun by the Imperial court.
 
Takeda uniting Japan might be interesting, as would Date. Useugi would be tougher - even the Oda feared Takeda - and maybe the Moro could do so too. An ongoing Hideyoshi shogunate would be interesting too. Red Seal ships might trade as far as India by 1650 and Europe by 1700 - they were able to reach Mexico. Hawaii as a Japanese colony (New Zealand, Alaska, Madagascar, parts of Africa, Oregon, Australia too?).
 
You can only form a shogunate if you are of Minamoto descent,so most of the clans wouldn't form any shogunates.Nonetheless,Oda rule( they aren't Minamoto,they are Taira,hence no Shogunate),would be quite interesting.

So the most likely to establish a new shogunate would be Shimazu, Takeda, or Imagawa...
 
An Oda shogunate is probably the most likely, probably with Nobunaga surviving the Honnō-ji Incident, or simply removing it entirely. He could have easily been able to continue uniting the land, albeit with growing opposition from other clans and among his vassals.

However, a Christian Otomo shogunate is probably going to create a lot more shockwaves.
 
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Thing is it all depends on when we are talking about any of this happening. The Takeda,and Hojo were big fish in small ponds in who had their own troubles with each other,. if this is post Okehazama then the Hojo,Takeda,Imagwa alliance is gonna go south. The Uesugi are not gonna happen, Kenshin wasn't interested that much in conquest. The Oda was largely from a series of lucky breaks. The Mori, Shimazu actually having a chance to unite Japan, but it depends on what happens if the Oda can be taken or slowed down early.

If we go with OTL then an Oda Shogunate is possible, but the question is for as eccentric and cruel as Nobunaga was how would Nobutada differ. The Takeda could also work, but the two questions are can Shingen he keep his original heir Yoshinobu from rebelling, and possibly live a little longer to give the Oda a scare, or forgoing that can Katsuyori turn out to have a better reign.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
I personally find a foreign "shogunate" the most interesting at the moment. Even if it only legitimized by force, and age.

Korea could be interesting, as could a European shogunate, or a Chinese.

Other than those, probably either the Shimazu, or a Christian/Christianising Clan, or perhaps if really early on, a Shogunate forms under the Fujiwara.
 
I personally find a foreign "shogunate" the most interesting at the moment. Even if it only legitimized by force, and age.

Korea could be interesting, as could a European shogunate, or a Chinese.

Other than those, probably either the Shimazu, or a Christian/Christianising Clan, or perhaps if really early on, a Shogunate forms under the Fujiwara.
If a foreigner took over,or a Christian took over,it most likely won't be a Shogunate,but a kingdom or an empire with the Yamato dynasty purged.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
If a foreigner took over,or a Christian took over,it most likely won't be a Shogunate,but a kingdom or an empire with the Yamato dynasty purged.

Hence interesting, rather than simple. The simple option is as you suggest, something interesting would be happening if they instituted their own Shogun. The Shogun may well be the former territory of a few clans turned into a province/governate of the conqueror, but having a Shogun that enforces the rules at arms length, but gives tax income and manpower from Japan is more cost-effective than a full occupation of Japan.

I could see the Chinese retaining the Shogunate, after a war to put the Japanese in their place. "Emperor of the Rising Sun" PAH!

Emperor of China becomes Emperor of China, Emperor of the Rising and the Setting Sun. :p

But yes, Interesting Over Simple :p
 
Oda is both the easiest to do (I seriously doubt the Emperor is going to say no if Oda really wants to become shogun; Nobunaga would find a way), and probably the most interesting. It's likely to be much more open to Western influences, with significant hostility from the Buddhist establishment and increasingly from some of the other nobles. That's a recipe for a fascinating mix.
 
You can't declare yourself Shogun. Only the Imperial court/Emperor can appoint someone to that position. Remember Hideyoshi didn't declare himself Kampaku, he had himself adopted by one of the Regent houses then made Chief minister. Chances are Oda would force a Minamoto clan to adopt him, then be proclaimed Shogun by the Imperial court.

That's the usual situation, yes. However, Oda Nobunaga wasn't conventional, and his grandiose ego meant he was never going to restrict and weaken himself through such a situation. He didn't work inside the traditional framework. This is a man who, after all, was offered the post of Shogun, despite his claims of Taira descent, in 1582. He turned the imperial court down.

Also, note that Nobunaga's assassin Akechi Mitsuhide did declare himself shogun. Mitsuhide of course died shortly thereafter, but this does tell us something about perceptions of the shogun.
 
You can only form a shogunate if you are of Minamoto descent,so most of the clans wouldn't form any shogunates.Nonetheless,Oda rule( they aren't Minamoto,they are Taira,hence no Shogunate),would be quite interesting.

Not exactly.

The first samurai-dominated government (which the shogunate practically is) wasn't created by a Minamoto, but a Taira. Taira no Kiyomori, to be exact.

The reason some samurai clans during the Sengoku jidai stressed their Genji lineage is to strengthen their claim to the shogunate, to be seen as continuing the tradition of Minamoto supremacy.

In the end, it's still the Emperor who has the final say on who gets to be shogun. Even a non-Minamoto daimyo (Taira and Fujiwara lineage, in particular) could become shogun, if he play his cards right.
 
Hideyoshi Shogunate Continued

Have Torii Mototada killed on the first, second, third, or even fourth day of the siege at Fushimi instead of his seppuku on the eleventh day and the battle of OTL Sekigahara will not only be farther east but also more likely to favor the Hideyoshi side. Without the Bakufu, most specifically Tokugawa Iemitsu, the third shogun, Japan may not close its doors to nearly the same extent and would probably be a very different country today.
 
An Oda 'Shogunate' would be interesting, but not for the whole 'Nobunaga would have kept Japan open, allowed Christianity, not invaded Korea, or succeeded in it, and have Gundams roam the land by modern times' reasons. That comes more from a perception of Hideyoshi being a poor ruler, rather than one who made big mistakes and had a decline during the last years of his reign, and of Ieyasu as a grump who hated foreigners.

Nobunaga was already moving in to support Hideyoshi in finally crushing the Mori, and would probably be less merciful to them than he was, and had given his officers and sons the duty of launching an invasion of the still-divided Shikoku region. From there, the plan was to smash the Uesugi, then the Hojo who were to be contained during this, and then finish off the Shimazu and Tohoku daimyo if they refused to submit to him. Before Akechi's betrayal, this was just wiping things up and claiming victory after the destruction of the Takeda, so this'd likely take less time than Hideyoshi's unification without the need to deal with internal rivalry.

The Sword-Hunt, tax reform, and ban on owning weapons would likely be followed through, with the social mobility restrictions that inevitably followed as well, although merchants may get a better deal than they did under Hideyoshi but YMMV. The Imjin War would happen earlier than OTL as well, with fairly different commanders, I wouldn't be surprised if Hideyoshi and Nobutada weren't sent to Korea itself to direct the invasion. Whether Nobunaga might have accepted that taking China was impossible as time went on, and if the Japanese negotiators would be able and willing to delude him as they did with Hideyoshi, but actually taking Korea would fail for similar reasons as OTL. At best, Japan might gain a few bits of southern Korea, quickly lost as internal factors make it a white elephant for retainers.

Assuming Nobunaga lives another 10-5 years with no or a failed Honnoji, the succession to Nobutada would be a smoother affair. He was similar to his father, if a bit more conventional, and had assisted Ieyasu in eliminating the Takeda, even being assigned roles in future campaigns before he was killed IOTL. Not to mention that he would be in his mid-30s and have an heir, even if they were still twelve, which makes things easier for the Oda. Hideyoshi would lack the fame of avenging Nobunaga, there's a clear leader for the Oda rather than a crisis, and I doubt Ieyasu would risk it all on challenging Nobutada.

If he stay with dedicating resources in Korea, however, we might see an uprising as the pressures mount and an opportunity presents itself for Ieyasu as the only person left to make such a challenge to the Oda. If he decides to negotiate and get out of there, it becomes a question of how long does Nobutada live and how much does Nobuhide change from having his grandfather and father around for much longer. Ieyasu might make a move if he's still alive at the point where Nobutada dies, but he might have been weakened beforehand, so who knows? If we take the Siege of Gifu Castle in 1600 IOTL, we see someone who isn't that great at strategy, but he was eighteen at the time.

Ultimately, we might see a longer time before Japan closes itself off, but we would see the same pressures on Christian Daimyos, suspicion of foreign intentions, and a desire to prevent rebellion that we saw from the Toyotomi and Tokugawa IOTL. In a milder form, perhaps, but still trying to lessen the presence of 'foreign' ideas.
 
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