Alternate Scramble for Africa to include as many colonist nations as possible?

krieger

Banned
If PLC somehow managed to maintain its independence into XIXth century it could participate in scramble for Africa if the nationalists wanted to get colonies for Poland (after First World War OTL they wanted to do it but scramble was already over). Another possiblity is to have stable Polish colony in Gambia and Swedish Madagascar (someone from Madagascar asked Charles XII for help in exchange of being Swedish protectorate).
 
Yes we can get a lot of different stuff to happen but it depends on the POD and whether there is a French revolution and Napoleon. So not sure what you implying. The further you go back the greater the changes both in Ottoman Empire and elsewhere. So if no Napoleon then no Charles X and we could have a different France that invades and conquers Egypt to gain access to India. Case point you can make it as great for Ottoman you wish but 19th century geopolitical and society changes will happen in similar fashions. You might even have the 1848 revolts spread to Ottoman Empire and topple it.

I'm operating off a Post-Congress of Vienna POD, since that's arguably the earlist you can go without Napoleon's butterfly swarm producing a Europe that's totally unrecognizable. Go back early enough an we could craft a situation where Mecklenburg is a major colonial power.
 
Stretching the definition of Africa a bit, could another European power besides Britain or France gain control of Malta?

Also, could the French hold onto Mauritius and the Seychelles, not losing them to Britain during the Napoleonic Wars? And/or, could the Germans or Italians later acquire these islands?
 
Would Italy dare attack Ethiopia if that meant going against Russia?
In the Russian Eritrea-Ethiopia scenario I presented above, Italy would probably be restricted to Italian Somaliland and I doubt they'd attempt expansion into Ethiopia proper but you could see Italian agents attempting to play on Ethiopian rivalries like they did IOTL.
The biggest issue for Russian colonization of this area is that it is subject to both Ottoman action closing access to Russian Black Sea ports especially with Baltic ports freezing part of year. Plus Russian ships also have to contend with British interference in using the Suez Canal. But I like it and makes sense since the Russians believed they were protectors of all Orthodox Christians.
Anything else to recommend?
 

Lusitania

Donor
I'm operating off a Post-Congress of Vienna POD, since that's arguably the earlist you can go without Napoleon's butterfly swarm producing a Europe that's totally unrecognizable. Go back early enough an we could craft a situation where Mecklenburg is a major colonial power.

Ok I can work with that. The major obstacle to ottoman control of Egypt into the 19th century is the desire of Europeans to build the Suez Canal and the belief that an independent Egypt is easier to bully and negotiate with that Ottoman Empire. So the best way for Ottoman Empire to continue controlling Egypt would be for it to build the Suez Canal. Wether they are successful and that the canal profitable to pay the government debt not sure. So it could be a two edge sword.

If the french do not move in then the British will. But we are assuming that Russia is not an issue and breathing down Ottoman Empire kneck right? Then how did nsopeanic wars end. It was his battles against the Rusdisns that exhausted France and led to napoleons downfall. So not sure how no Russia plays out.
 

Lusitania

Donor
In the Russian Eritrea-Ethiopia scenario I presented above, Italy would probably be restricted to Italian Somaliland and I doubt they'd attempt expansion into Ethiopia proper but you could see Italian agents attempting to play on Ethiopian rivalries like they did IOTL.

Anything else to recommend?
I think Russian colony after the Suez Canal is built but Russian access to it would be subject to interference from other countries.
 
An outlandish and slightly ASB idea:

Austria-Hungary buys the Rio de Oro and uses it as a penal colony, except a great many restless Serbians and Bosnians go there as part of resettlement, exile, (For groups like the Black Hand.) and “pacification” programmes of both the Sahara and Bosnia. What with the Sahara’s relatively small population, that can be moved anyways, it soon becomes majority Slavic, and after World War 1 instead of becoming independent it is an appendage to Yugoslavia.

There we go, Yugoslavian Africa. Again, I know, pretty unrealistic, but a fun idea.
 
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They have plenty of their own territory to 4X on in the 1800's.

Anyways, the Ottomans are your best bet. Keep/regain control of Egypt, and there's plenty of opportunity to explore down the Nile and expand their influence over East Africa and the Nile basin. The Belgian State (as opposed to just Leopold) also had the capacity to jump in if not the inclination, with a strong industry that required inputs, a population surplus to provide your coastal settler core, and exports that could use a captive market.
IIRC, in OTL the Egyptians tried to conquer/colonize Uganda and failed. They had a British adventuer leading the effort.
 
Ok I can work with that. The major obstacle to ottoman control of Egypt into the 19th century is the desire of Europeans to build the Suez Canal and the belief that an independent Egypt is easier to bully and negotiate with that Ottoman Empire. So the best way for Ottoman Empire to continue controlling Egypt would be for it to build the Suez Canal. Wether they are successful and that the canal profitable to pay the government debt not sure. So it could be a two edge sword.

If the french do not move in then the British will. But we are assuming that Russia is not an issue and breathing down Ottoman Empire kneck right? Then how did nsopeanic wars end. It was his battles against the Rusdisns that exhausted France and led to napoleons downfall. So not sure how no Russia plays out.

Building the Suez canal under an Ottoman Egypt (likely Muhammad Ali is less autonimous and doesn't get his Wali status to be hereditary, or he dies before her can solidify his family's independent status.) is easy enough. A strong Constantinople could easily float the regional concessions to the Suez Canal Company (Or a British-captalized counterpart, depending on the specifics of the circumstances) and get the shares Ali got IOTL; the Tazimat Reforms being carried out to make the Empire more friendly to bussiness. Given how key French banks Banks were to providing loans for development projects in Italy, Belgium, and Austria during the mid-1800's it's not like theres no possible funding (Though it likely comes at somebody else's expense... probably either an earlier move out of Spain or a lasting concern about Austria post-1848) to jumpstart infastructure and industrial development; though the earlier is likely going to be more coastal shipping than rails, given the geography, being focused around the western Anatolian coast with regional hubs around Beirut and the Nile Delta
 

Lusitania

Donor
Building the Suez canal under an Ottoman Egypt (likely Muhammad Ali is less autonimous and doesn't get his Wali status to be hereditary, or he dies before her can solidify his family's independent status.) is easy enough. A strong Constantinople could easily float the regional concessions to the Suez Canal Company (Or a British-captalized counterpart, depending on the specifics of the circumstances) and get the shares Ali got IOTL; the Tazimat Reforms being carried out to make the Empire more friendly to bussiness. Given how key French banks Banks were to providing loans for development projects in Italy, Belgium, and Austria during the mid-1800's it's not like theres no possible funding (Though it likely comes at somebody else's expense... probably either an earlier move out of Spain or a lasting concern about Austria post-1848) to jumpstart infastructure and industrial development; though the earlier is likely going to be more coastal shipping than rails, given the geography, being focused around the western Anatolian coast with regional hubs around Beirut and the Nile Delta
Still not sure how we not have a Napoleonic France with Russia to waste away the French armies.
 
Still not sure how we not have a Napoleonic France with Russia to waste away the French armies.

You still can have a Russia. Just one that doesn't have the confidence to comfortably push on the Ottomans, which with a strong Caliphate is even more likely. Nappy could make them bleed harder, or maybe the Serfdom issue festers like slavery in the US and triggers a civil crisis or alternatively is allowed to stay in place, slowing Russian development right as the Ottomans are ramping up.
 
I think Russian colony after the Suez Canal is built but Russian access to it would be subject to interference from other countries.
It depends on how successful Russia would be in consolidating over Eritrea or Djibouti but there would be interference - Italy would probably be brought into the Horn as a means of countering Franco-Russian influence in Eastern Africa.
 

Lusitania

Donor
You still can have a Russia. Just one that doesn't have the confidence to comfortably push on the Ottomans, which with a strong Caliphate is even more likely. Nappy could make them bleed harder, or maybe the Serfdom issue festers like slavery in the US and triggers a civil crisis or alternatively is allowed to stay in place, slowing Russian development right as the Ottomans are ramping up.
But the main strategy of Russia that can defeat Napoleon is one that is adamant about gaining a port that is open year round, hence their push to the black sea. This get us into conflict with Ottoman who controlled the black sea. Plus Ottoman controlling Constantinople where the Orthodox head of church is a huge irritant. So either we have strong enough Russia which has expanded to black sea ports and can defeat Napoleon or we not have that an imagine a world of Napoleonic Europe. Which one?
 

Lusitania

Donor
It depends on how successful Russia would be in consolidating over Eritrea or Djibouti but there would be interference - Italy would probably be brought into the Horn as a means of countering Franco-Russian influence in Eastern Africa.
Yes but the WWII is any example the ability of Britain to close the suez cannal cuts off any Russian colonies no matter how successful. If Russia does not have access to them to re-enforce them then they doomed if Russia fights Britain.
 
Yes but the WWII is any example the ability of Britain to close the suez cannal cuts off any Russian colonies no matter how successful. If Russia does not have access to them to re-enforce them then they doomed if Russia fights Britain.
Do you think Russia is going to be involved in fighting with Britain?
 

Lusitania

Donor
Do you think Russia is going to be involved in fighting with Britain?
The British were very worried about Russian attempts on gaining ports in the Indian ocean, that was the reason they supported the Persians and Ottoman to keep them out of the Indian Ocean plus fought them for control Afganisntan
 
The British were very worried about Russian attempts on gaining ports in the Indian ocean, that was the reason they supported the Persians and Ottoman to keep them out of the Indian Ocean plus fought them for control Afganisntan
What do you think London will do once it is found out that Russia has already established a colonial presence on the Eritrean and/or Somali coasts?
 

Lusitania

Donor
What do you think London will do once it is found out that Russia has already established a colonial presence on the Eritrean and/or Somali coasts?
Well that is the thing what will the British do against the Russians, will they let them be or support Italians or natives against the Russians. They did so against other European countries.
 
Well that is the thing what will the British do against the Russians, will they let them be or support Italians or natives against the Russians. They did so against other European countries.
It makes sense that they'd attempt to back different Ethiopia factions against a Russian-backed Tewodros, Yohannes and/or Menelik but they'd probably bring in Italy to colonize the Somali regions on the Horn.
 
Isma'il Pasha's Egypt could prove to be successful in establishing an Egyptian colonial empire in the Horn of Africa if Egypt avoided the significant debt that it racked up during Ismail's reign and depending on how subtle Cairo is, Eritrea and Ethiopia could become Egyptian protectorates and/or colonies as more of Sudan is added to Darfur. You might see expansion occurring as far as OTL's French and British Somaliland under an Egyptian-Sudanese-Ethiopian Army but I'm not sure how far they'd be able to go before the European powers intervene.
 
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