Alternate Roman Religion
- Thread starter ETGalaxy
- Start date
Recall that conversion wasn't an overnight thing. It too centuries of expansion and varying levels of tolerance before the Roman state became officially Christian.
Maoistic
Banned
Rival religions of Christianity for control of the Roman Empire would have been the traditional Greco-Roman religion (Hellenism), Egyptian religion, Judaism, Manicheism and Zoroastrianism. The reason why Christianity triumphed over all of them, and they were never going to have triumphed over Christianity, was because it was far cheaper and sustainable economically, socially inclusive, was native to the empire instead of remote and/or geographically marginal and highly mobile thanks to a lack of complex rituals and spoke the same languages of the empire (Greek, Coptic, Aramaic and Latin).
So no, it was impossible for them to have replaced Christianity.
So no, it was impossible for them to have replaced Christianity.
There is some interesting evidence regarding Judaism that shows how it was a lot less closed off to outsiders before the full Christaniation of Roman society (see Archaeological Evidence for the Interaction of Jews and Non-Jews in Late Antiquity by Leonard Victor Rutgers). Of course, we also know that the Manicheans were extremely into proselytizing. Could a Constantine figure have converted to these and set into motion the same process that led to Roman Christianization? I don't know, there's not enough evidence. People should really stop entirely ruling it out though.
Please explain why a Maximinus Dias PoD wouldn't work for entrenching and propagating Late Antique Platonic religion through a structured, professional clergy. Given that your statement is so absolute, you must have extensive knowledge of this subject. I look forward to seeing how my months and months of research in peer reviewed books and articles matches up.
Please explain why a Maximinus Dias PoD wouldn't work for entrenching and propagating Late Antique Platonic religion through a structured, professional clergy. Given that your statement is so absolute, you must have extensive knowledge of this subject. I look forward to seeing how my months and months of research in peer reviewed books and articles matches up.
Maoistic
Banned
Explain this PoD involving Maximus. I think I need more details in order to make an informed opinion. All I'll say right now is that the problem of the traditional Roman ruling class is that it was unwilling to carry out the Platonic/Pythagorean ritual reforms proposed by Plotinus, Porphyry and other such philosophers that advanced an abolition of animal sacrifices and other such lavish and ultra-expensive rituals in favour of a more contemplative religion, which is why it lost to the Christians.
What if Christianity never existed? Then wouldn't Rome have to eventually adopt another religion or would it continue with Hellenism?
Maoistic
Banned
There was a high chance Judaism would be adopted. More likely, though is that Hellenism would have reformed along Platonic lines, thus still looking a lot like Christianity.
Does that mean that Europe would be Jewish? In my opinion that's a very cool concept!
I would recommend the search function. We have this thread every few days or so, and I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't have one on page 2 right now. At the very least, any thread about surviving pagan faiths would also naturally cover the discussion.
How would that have worked? Judaism isn't exactly known for proselytizing.
The most likely event to occur is that Neoplatonism develops into an organized religion with a holy text, gradually being adopted by society at large.
I personally think it's unlikely that the Roman world would have continued practicing paganism much longer. The time and setting was ripe for a religious revolution with several different faiths vying for converts. The old polytheistic ways were in decline even before Constantine, in favor of more monotheistic-ish mystery cults like the Isis cult and Mithraism, philosophical reinterpretations like Platonism and Neoplatonism, imperial backed sun worship in the form of Sol Invictus, and eastern faiths like Manichaeism, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Judaism and even Buddhism. There were so many faiths with large followings that it was pretty much inevitable that one of them would win out, Chirstianity just happened to come out on top IOTL. If you want to keep Hellenic paganism as a thing you basically need to keep the Romans from getting so big or make them fall several centuries early (like 1st century AD early). The interchange of ideas across the empire that were facilitated by trade and the imperial government let these faiths spread, and the Pax Romana and accompanying economic prosperity during the empire's height meant that people suddenly had time to sit down and worry about the long term, like what was going to happen after death. The Hellenic afterlife was... not an ideal place to spend eternity, and pretty much every other cult promised some form of blessed afterlife or resurrection.
Modern Judaism isn't known for proselytizing, but historically there were times it was a proselytizing religion, and the Roman period was one of them. There were large Jewish communities in Egypt at the time, and both Ethiopia and Himyar were Jewish for a while. Jews proselytized, it's just that Christians (and later Muslims) proselytized better.
A syncretic religion mating those two is my own bet. Especially if the legions keep being successful; legionaries liked Mithras well enough, and at the same time they'd not forget to pay their respects to the emperor.
Since Roman Christianity seems to have been Platonic Nonethnic Messianic Judaism with influence of Sol Invictus and Mithras-Isis worship could we see a Romanised Hellenic Judaism do the same?
Considering that early Christianity was just seen as a sect of Judaism ("Messianic Judaism", as already pointed out), I always found the notion of Christians not breaking off, but rather becoming THE predominant element (and thus the "norm") of Judaism to be fascinating.
This could result in achieving the OP if proselytizing remains a key component of this alt-Judaism, OR if it stays an Eastern faith and influences something like a Roman cult (possibly founding a syncretic faith off of native and foreign elements?) in the west.
This could result in achieving the OP if proselytizing remains a key component of this alt-Judaism, OR if it stays an Eastern faith and influences something like a Roman cult (possibly founding a syncretic faith off of native and foreign elements?) in the west.
It's not impossible to have one 'winner' with other surviving practises, depending on the tolerance of whoever gains control over the state and a majority over the Empire's citizens. Likewise all of these contenders shared some amount of cultural DNA by the period we're discussing, making coexistence or later mergers entirely possible. You could talk about OTL Roman Christianity as a merger of the original Christians, the parts of Jewish practice they maintained, Neoplatonic philosophy, and the Roman priesthood structure as had originally dealt with traditional practice. In fact mergers might even be considered likely. A mega union of all the mystery cults would be an interesting scenario, maybe tagging along with a Neoplatonic reformed Greco-Roman religion, or piggybacking onto the structure of the Imperial Cult.
I also would caution against seeing traditional religion as spiritually moribund during this era. Some important tropes in Greek religion were generated in this late period (Achilles' heel is from the 2nd-3rd centuries AD for example), and many specific local cults remained strong. But there are definitely structural and social factors encouraging new religious approaches and a number of the old panhellenic institutions were definitely crumbling. It's not impossible that these old cults to Achilles, Dionysus, Persephone eye could become part of the new order, or remain in existence alongside it
I also would caution against seeing traditional religion as spiritually moribund during this era. Some important tropes in Greek religion were generated in this late period (Achilles' heel is from the 2nd-3rd centuries AD for example), and many specific local cults remained strong. But there are definitely structural and social factors encouraging new religious approaches and a number of the old panhellenic institutions were definitely crumbling. It's not impossible that these old cults to Achilles, Dionysus, Persephone eye could become part of the new order, or remain in existence alongside it
Given that Sol Invictus already turns up in every bull-slaying scene and he's frequently seen together with Mithras, it's not impossible to make the two of them and Luna an alternate "Holy Trinity", with Sol having dominion over the day, Luna the night and Mithras as their presumptive representative on Earth.
Note also the old Semitic trinity of El/Yah, Elat/Asherah, and their sacrificial son of various names.
From what I've heard, Constantine was evenly considering picking either Christianity and Mithraism as Rome's new religion, so Rome's second most likely religion would be Mithraism mixed with some Roman elements and Holy Trinity symbolism as @Tom Colton mentioned.