Alternate results for decisive battles/sieges

For the following battles/sieges:
- Poitiers
- Manzikert
- Las Navas de Tolosa
- Belgrade (1456)
- Pavia
- Mohacs
- Siege of Malta
- Siege of Leiden
- Oostende
- Rocroi
- 2nd Mohacs
- Slankamen
- Zenta
- Blenheim
- Plassey
- 3rd Panipat
- Leipzig
- Sedan

What would the realistic results be if the losers of the listed battles won? You may do some of them, all of them. Feel free my fellow... ehh partners in crime I guess...
 
A French victory at Pavia could have interesting consequences for Italy and the Netherlands. Plus, would the Franco-Turkish Alliance still be formalized if Francis I is not a prisoner of Charles?
I'm also interested in a scenario involving Ostend. If the Dutch Republic holds more of Flanders and Brabant, how will its politics and history be affected?
 
A French victory at Pavia could have interesting consequences for Italy and the Netherlands. Plus, would the Franco-Turkish Alliance still be formalized if Francis I is not a prisoner of Charles?
I'm also interested in a scenario involving Ostend. If the Dutch Republic holds more of Flanders and Brabant, how will its politics and history be affected?

If the Habsburgs and Ottomans are still enemies... then yes. But if Francis is successful in Italy then it might be later.

Ostend was interesting as well. The thing I wished were different were that the Dutch took Flanders while the French took Wallonia. Or Wallonia remained as it was.
 
Battle of Dayr al-Aqul, 876, Iraq.

Otl, the Abbasid Caliphate gains an enormous victory against Ya’qub bin Layth al-Saffar after a long campaign of attrition in western Iran. Ya’qub al-Saffar, an aged General, had been pushing or converging towards the Abbasid centre at Samarra for some time. His initial moves consolidating Iran against the Tahirids in Mazandran had been successful. The only force that impeded his push, was very sound defense and then a well planned counterattack by the Abbasid commanding officers.

As a result, the battle of Dayr al-Aqul was a fast paced cavalry bout where within minutes, the battle ended as a flurry of fighting and arrows occurred. The Saffarid army collapsed in a rout after the Iranian cavalry was broken by the Turkic Mamluk/Ghulam cavalry and arrows. Abbasid forces followed the retreat with opening canals and dams covering the Safdarid retreat, killing hundreds of Saffarid laggers and destroying supplies. Abbasid forces thus succeeded in averting crisis and blocked the threat from the east. Allowing now, the Abbasid to devote its entire attention to the then mostly victorious Zanj in the south and also to begin making overtures toward the issue developing in Egypt.

If the Saffarid forces gain an equally decisive victory or a simple victory, the Abbasid Caliphate risks total collapse... Leading to any number of possibilities. This scenario also leaves many talented Abbasid generals and governors, who will be rulers on their own. Further, the Zanj will undoubtedly make gains soon after the news reaches them. However, what this means for the already strained Zanj-Saffarid relations, is tough to decide.

Ali Ibn Muhammad al-Dibaj (Zanj leader) will likely use this victory as propaganda. The Abbasid Caliph is illegitimate by the defeat to Ya’qub al-Saffar. Equally so, Ya’qub al-Saffar is not of the Ahl ul Bayt (family of Ali) and thus below ‘myself’ (as in al-Dibaj).
 
Personally I added some of my favorites although, like John7755 you can add your favorites as well.

So Manzikert is one of the interesting one. After Seljuks had won they didn't really enter Anatolia until Romanos IV Diogones was deposed and the new emperor did not acknowledge the treaty. Had th Byzantines won then there would probably no Turks entering Anatolia for the time being.

One of my favorite historical part is about Al Andalus. So that's why Las Navas de Tolosa hurts me :(
If lets say the Almohads weren't caught in their camp and really enforced a battle they could wreck havoc in Christian land and at the same time it could have preserved Islamic Andalusia (for a longer time). Sad.

Belgrade, if Mehmed won in Belgrade and secured the Balkans from Hungarians he had his hands free to gobble up the rest of Greece sooner. Maybe finish of Albania as well. And with all that done, go for Rome as well...

Pavia, A French victory resulting in a conquest of Northern Italy? Who wouldn't like that... I don't but sure others will. And Charles V would not have looked for Hungary.

Siege of Leiden, With this one I'm grateful. The Netherlands beign safe from Papist rule from Madrid, God forbid. But Spain would be relieved a lot had they broken the rebellion then. And it would surely affected a lot of events. Maybe even more successful against France and England.

2nd Mohacs, Could have been won by the o so mighty and great and spectacular and... great Ottomans. The results would end in a reconquest of Buda while safeguard Transylvania. If initiative taken, the Habsburgs would go for peace as well. Status Quo.

Slankamen, a battle almost won by the Ottomans until Köprülü Fazil Mustafa Pasha was hit by a bullet. What are the odds? I guess God really didn't want the Ottomans win... regardless, victory was near. And a victory which meant moving the front back to Central Hungary when there was war with France. Additionally saving Transylvania, so to say.

Zenta, Eugene ambushed the Ottomans while crossing the Tisza. Now this battle is more an ambush so there is either avoiding this or knowing that the Imperial Army is on the way and prepare. The Army is experienced and is led by the Sultan so motivation. At this point regaining Hungary is next to impossible. But what avoided peace was about the Hungarian nobles demanded by the Habsburgs but not given by the Ottomans. And ofcourse Mustafa desiring Transylvania back as a vassal. If won, there would definitely a better result than OTL. Austria lacked funds to continue the war as far as regaining Timisoara. A victory would put the Ottomans in a better position to negotiate.

Blenheim, A French victory and occupatio of Vienna could have changed A LOT in Europe. No Austria to meddle in Eastern Europe, one enemy gone in the war of Spanish Succession. France at the point of winning.

Plassey, I don't like British India so I really wished the locals won. Oh well, poor me. 3rd Panipat, Don't know how it will affect the Marathas because although they lost, they still dominated Northern India from 1770 to British Conquest in 1802.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
I will only coment about those which I know something about.
- Poitiers
Irrelevant; Importance of battle blown out of any proportion by Frankish propaganda

- Manzikert
World changing. Roman Empire retains Anatolian core. Possibly never falls. Maybe Islam stops at Syria.

- Las Navas de Tolosa
Not much difference, the "Spanish" keep on trying

- Belgrade (1456)
Not much difference, the Ottomans keep on trying

Maybe a difference, maybe not - doubtlessly the Ottomans keep on trying. Maybe they succeed at some point or maybe not ...
The big thing was the death of the Hungarian Jagiellons. Their survival would have enormous bigger impact regardless of outcome of battle.

- Siege of Malta
Irrelevant. Turks gain a small island. No biggy. Pirates in Tunis or La Valetta? What's the difference ...

Irrelevant. Another example of French hot air overhype

- Plassey
- 3rd Panipat
I suspect that nothing much changes. On one hand we have armies where a lot depended on personalities, and the fortunes of that side wax and vane with the skill of leaders, on the other side we have a faceless corporation which will grind down its opponents if that is good for "the bottom line".

- Leipzig
Not much difference, Napoleon loses somewhere else a few weeks later. Even if there is some sort of negotiated peace, two or three years there is another war and Nappy gets curb stomped.

Another possible world changer. The North German Federation probably stays just that, does not expand South and does not become the German Empire.
 
Some honorable mentions:
Sandwich (1217) -- England is yet again conquered by Frenchmen. Oh boy...

Lake Peipus (1242) -- The Teutonic Order conquers Pskov and Novgorod? If they decide to focus on Russia instead of Lithuania, will their rivalry with the latter be prevented?

Golden Spurs (1302) -- Had the French properly annexed the Netherlands, how would European history change from there on in, especially if we consider that France would now be in better control of the English wool trade and have a proper platform to the North Sea?

Bannockburn (1313) -- While i doubt Robert Bruce would fully give up after such a defeat, it could still spell disaster for Scotland. Maybe it gets partitioned between England (Lowlands) and Norway (Highlands)?

Crécy (1346) -- Getting the French to properly defeat the longbowmen would have interesting consequences. With proper breathing space in the 14th century, where will the French direct their focus to? Italy? Castille? Plus, considering that the Bohemian king and his heir (Charles IV) were present at the battle, could they return to the HRE with better prestige?

Aljubarrota (1385) -- Say goodbye to Aviz Portugal, and hello to Early And More Powerful Iberian Union...

Sempach (1386) -- What would be of the Alps without the Swiss Confederation? How would Austria deal with this new power vaccuum?

Ankara (1402) -- With Bayezid's empire mostly intact and Timur humiliated, what will happen next to Constantinople and the Balkans?

Grunwald (1410) -- Could the decline of the Teutonic Order be prevented? If the Pope decides to support the knights, could Poland end up cozying up with the Hussites?

Agincourt (1415) -- A reverse outcome could prevent the de facto independence of Burgundy from France and have consequences for the Western Schism in the church. However, the survival of nobles who were IOTL executed or punished for collaborating with the English could also have other consequences.

Varna (1442) -- Hungary and Venice carve out spheres of influence for themselves in the Balkans, and the Byzantine Empire recovers some territory (such as Thessaly and Morea)?

Grandson (1476) -- Charles the Bold becomes Charles the Great?
 
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Siege of Malta - Malta could be a stepping stone to Sicily, so it has some danger there

Blenheim - would a French victory include the deaths of Marlborough or Eugene?

Leipzig - well if this thread is what if the losers won, rather than what if they avoided defeat, this could be massive. If Napoleon wins the Battle of Nations he probably smashes the Coalition and people will be looking to make deals with him asap
 
Blenheim - would a French victory include the deaths of Marlborough or Eugene?
Moreover, with a complete Bourbon victory in the Spanish Succession War, could we see a Franco-Spanish personal union down the line, as a result of different clauses to the Treaty of Utrecht?
To top that off, Hungary then becomes independent under the Rakóczis, which means that the French will have to balance between allying with Hungary or Turkey, or make a definitive choice.
 
Adrianople was contested between forces of about equal size, and only ended so disastrously because Valens couldn't control an impulsive cohort of his own troops.

Its long-term effects on the WRE and ERE were so decisive that making a Roman victory would change much of late Antiquity.
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
Some honorable mentions:
Lake Peipus (1242) -- The Teutonic Order conquers Pskov and Novgorod? If they decide to focus on Russia instead of Lithuania, will their rivalry with the latter be prevented?

From winning that battle to conquering and holding Pskov and/or Novgorod is a long, long way ... IMO not so important

Golden Spurs (1302)
-- Had the French properly annexed the Netherlands, how would European history change from there on in, especially if we consider that France would now be in better control of the English wool trade and have a proper platform to the North Sea?
The only effect would be better (and temporary) control of Flanders - not Netherlands.


Aljubarrota (1385)
-- Say goodbye to Aviz Portugal, and hello to Early And More Powerful Iberian Union...
True - Portugal annexed to Castile. World changing. There is no - or a very, very different - Age of Discovery.

Grunwald (1410)
-- Could the decline of the Teutonic Order be prevented? If the Pope decides to support the knights, could Poland end up cozying up with the Hussites?
No, the decline is not stopped. Grunwald broke expansion power and stopped TO slaving raids on Lithuania. Decline was due to internal problems, the Order was broken by a revolt of the cities.
Poland was quite cosy with the Hussites anyway. IIRC one magnate went Hussite but was crushed by the local Archbishop local - who was Regent for underage King.


Grandson (1476)
-- Charles the Bold becomes Charles the Great?
Another world changer - indeed, Burgundy soldifies. Maybe Charles the Bold simply revives the Crown of of Lotharingia?
Grooms daughter and son-in-law for kingship?
 
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Blenheim, A French victory and occupatio of Vienna could have changed A LOT in Europe. No Austria to meddle in Eastern Europe, one enemy gone in the war of Spanish Succession. France at the point of winning.
Indeed, a French victory in the War of Spanish Sucession would change a lot. In the same war a victory at the Siege of Turin could also have done a lot to improve France's position, maybe definitively bringing Savoy into the French sphere of influence and eventually derailing the Risorgimento (because no strong and independent Kingdom of Sardinia would be around to serve as a rallying point).

1268 Tagliacozzo if Corradino Hohenstaufen had won against Charles d'Anjou there would have no split between Naples and Sicily and of course the House of Hohenstaufen would have endured, although I don't think it possible for them to regain the Imperial crown, not in the short term at least. Anyways big changes to the balance of power in Italy and the Hungarian Anjous are also butterflied away.

1513 Flodden Field Obvious and very significant effects on the British Islands.
 
1513 Flodden Field Obvious and very significant effects on the British Islands.
I can see some effects over Scottish religion once Protestantism spreads, and perhaps Berwick becomes Scottish territory. Now, what else?

Another underrated one:

Texel (1673) -- The Dutch Republic is destroyed and has its empire partitioned between England and France. Maybe the Glorious Revolution is also butterflied away?
 
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