Alternate Path to the two World Wars

JJohnson

Banned
I don't know if it's been done before, but I'm not a big fan of France, so I changed the timeline around a bit...

1871 - Germany United
1871-1900 - Germany signs treaty with England, not Austria-Hungary for defense.
1897 - Austria-Hungary, Serbia, and Bohemia sign treaty. France eventually signs as well.
1914-1919 - World War I - France, Russia, Ottomans form Central Powers against UK, Germany, US. France conquers Germany to the Rhine, Bohemia into Bavaria and Silesien. Poland enters Central Powers by 1917.
1919 - Treaty of Versailles - France cedes claims to Alsace-Lorraine, Bohemia to the Sudetenland, and all Poles are removed from Posen and other German states. Ottoman Empire dissassembled, and Greece is given back Constantinople and the western portion of Turkey as they held in 1263.
1919-1929 - France struck by war debt and failure of several governments. Austria punished as well, but a charismatic young Austrian, Adolf Hitler, unites the broken land, promising better times. The Turks, embittered by Christians in 'their' land, ignore Attaturk, who flees to Greece. They become more and more extreme.
1929-1932 - Nazi Party in Austria comes to power, with Hitler at its head. Hitler annexes Bavaria against the moderate German government's will.
1932-1939 - Nazis begin infiltrating Germany; UK, US, others ignore as an internal German civil war. By the time Hitler unites Austria with Germany, he has remilitarized the entire German Europe. The elected German government seeks asylum in the UK; Poland and France ally themselves with Austria-Germany and Italy forming the Axis powers with Japan. France conquers Spain, Poland conquers Lithuania and Latvia. By 1939, the two allies in Europe are more vassals to Nazi Germany due to Hitler's brand of racism. French and Polish Nazis are only too glad to agree to his racial policies. Ottomans annex Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Greece, and Iraq.
1939 - 1945 - World War II - Nazis have conquered Europe, but the UK, Denmark, Netherlands, Russia, Greece, and US fight and defeat them.
1945 - Peace Treaty - Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, and Czechoslovakia get remnants of Poland, and Russia exiles the remaining Poles across Siberia. Germany retains its 1871 borders plus Alsace-Lorraine and Sudetenland. Austria is demilitarized, and claims only the portion of Bohemia immediately adjacent to it. German colonies in Africa remain German. France is broken into Burgundy and France, and Normandy is given to the UK. The Ottomans in Turkey are expelled, and the entirety of Turkey is given back to the Greeks, plus former southern territory once belonging to the Byzantine Empire, what we would call Syria, Lebanon, Israel, and Jordan.
1948 - under the UN, the nation of Israel is created, in alliance to the Greek state, now called Byzantium.
1949 - final expulsion of Turks and Arabs from Byzantine lands. Middle East is redrawn, divided from Africa by the Byzantine state.

There you go. You get Byzantium and a unified Germany all in one timeline. And France gets a smackdown. If you've got corrections, please let me know. I'll try to post a map sometime soon.

James
 

Nietzsche

Banned
..you're completely missing the years of cooperation between Prussia and the Ottoman Empire. They were instrumental in Prussian(and later, Bismarck's) plans to keep the Austrians at bay. While the Turks never had to openly fight, it was nice to know they could come in at any time and give the Habsburgs a second front on a war.

Not to mention that the new Byzantium state would suffer massive upheavels. You think the Balkans were bad? Ha. This new Byzantine would make that look like a cake walk. Everyone and their brother in law would be fighting against them.

This almost belongs in ASB.
 
..you're completely missing the years of cooperation between Prussia and the Ottoman Empire. They were instrumental in Prussian(and later, Bismarck's) plans to keep the Austrians at bay. While the Turks never had to openly fight, it was nice to know they could come in at any time and give the Habsburgs a second front on a war.

Not to mention that the new Byzantium state would suffer massive upheavels. You think the Balkans were bad? Ha. This new Byzantine would make that look like a cake walk. Everyone and their brother in law would be fighting against them.

This almost belongs in ASB.

I'd go further and say this is ASB.
 
I don't know if it's been done before, but I'm not a big fan of France, so I changed the timeline around a bit...

1871 - Germany United
1871-1900 - Germany signs treaty with England, not Austria-Hungary for defense.
1897 - Austria-Hungary, Serbia, and Bohemia sign treaty. France eventually signs as well.

Excuse me? Austria and Germany NOT allied and AH allied with France? To farfetched.

1914-1919 - World War I - France, Russia, Ottomans form Central Powers against UK, Germany, US. France conquers Germany to the Rhine, Bohemia into Bavaria and Silesien. Poland enters Central Powers by 1917.
Do you know what the terms central powers ment, it ment the powers in the central of Europe. France, Russia and Ottomans wouldnt call themselves that. Why is US allied to anyone? They were isolanistic up unti sinking of one of their passengerships. Poland wasnt a own country until 1919.

How could France conquer Germany? UK would have sent France fleet to the bottom and then landed a force in northen France or sent the BEF to Germany

1919 - Treaty of Versailles - France cedes claims to Alsace-Lorraine, Bohemia to the Sudetenland, and all Poles are removed from Posen and other German states. Ottoman Empire dissassembled, and Greece is given back Constantinople and the western portion of Turkey as they held in 1263.
Ok, in the post before you had the French winning, here they suddenly loose?

1929-1932 - Nazi Party in Austria comes to power, with Hitler at its head. Hitler annexes Bavaria against the moderate German government's will.

And they just let him take it without a fight even though Germany was stronger?
 
1871-1900 - Germany signs treaty with England, not Austria-Hungary for defense.

Why? Just a snap decision? You need to at least provide some reason, perhaps a lapse in relations between Germany and Austria-Hungary. But why would Austria-Hungary forgo such a powerful ally so close by?

- Austria-Hungary, Serbia, and Bohemia sign treaty. France eventually signs as well.

Is this an anti-German treaty? How does Russia get involved in the war if it doesn't sign a treaty with France?

1914-1919
- World War I - France, Russia, Ottomans form Central Powers against UK, Germany, US. France conquers Germany to the Rhine, Bohemia into Bavaria and Silesien. Poland enters Central Powers by 1917.
First of all, how does the war start?

mattep74 already noted how they wouldn't call themselves the Central Powers (nor would anyone). How does the French military succeed in invading Germany when in OTL they failed to even protect their own territory, with British help?

Why do the Ottomans get involved, on the same side as Russia, no less? A big reason for Russia's involvement in WWI was that they wanted to gain Turkish territory, and Territory in the Balkans. Here you have Russia and Turkey allied, and you can bet they'll both want the Balkans.

Also, Bohemia wasn't even an independent nation at the time (I'm fairly certain, anyway; wasn't it part of Austria-Hungary?), so how do they invade Germany, and capture all of Bavaria no less? Hell, they conquer more territory than

- Treaty of Versailles - France cedes claims to Alsace-Lorraine, Bohemia to the Sudetenland, and all Poles are removed from Posen and other German states. Ottoman Empire dissassembled, and Greece is given back Constantinople and the western portion of Turkey as they held in 1263.

So, the "Central Powers" have captured over half of Germany, then decide they're tired of fighting and surrender territory that was half the reason for starting the war. The Ottoman Empire is disassembled for essentially no reason (after all, there's been no Russian and/or British invasion, because the Ottomans are allied with both countries). Not only is the Ottoman Empire disassembled, but much of its richest territories are given to Greece, a country not even involved in the war, based on history that happened over 500 years ago. Most people who live in Constantinople at this time are ethnic Turks, ditto for Western Anatolia. Why would they suddenly put up with Greek rule?

Why is Poland independent, then suddenly not, and why do the Germans remove ethnic Poles from their territory?

1919-1929
- France struck by war debt and failure of several governments. Austria punished as well, but a charismatic young Austrian, Adolf Hitler, unites the broken land, promising better times. The Turks, embittered by Christians in 'their' land, ignore Attaturk, who flees to Greece. They become more and more extreme.

Why are the Turks attacking Ataturk? It's not like he ever espoused pro-Christian views (to my knowledge), just secular ones. Secondly, why would he flee to Greece, Turkey's traditional enemy? Say what you will, he was a Turkish nationalist. Perhaps he'd flee to somewhere in Europe, but not Greece.

1929-1932
- Nazi Party in Austria comes to power, with Hitler at its head. Hitler annexes Bavaria against the moderate German government's will.
I don't see how Austria could ever make Germany do something it didn't want to.

-1939 - Nazis begin infiltrating Germany; UK, US, others ignore as an internal German civil war. By the time Hitler unites Austria with Germany, he has remilitarized the entire German Europe. The elected German government seeks asylum in the UK; Poland and France ally themselves with Austria-Germany and Italy forming the Axis powers with Japan. France conquers Spain, Poland conquers Lithuania and Latvia. By 1939, the two allies in Europe are more vassals to Nazi Germany due to Hitler's brand of racism. French and Polish Nazis are only too glad to agree to his racial policies. Ottomans annex Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Greece, and Iraq.
In OTL, the Nazi Party was elected by a landslide; why do they have to infiltrate Germany, and how do they seize power? I guess it would have to be through military occupation. Which is achieved by Austria, a country that was just defeated in WWI, has less technology than, and a lower population than Germany. Also, you never mentioned if the Austro-Hungarian Empire still existed or not. If not, wouldn't their first priority be to capture their former empire? If so, what are the "Central Powers" doing to punish them?

How does France conquer Spain without everyone in Europe not declaring war on them? Also, how does France conquer Spain if it is bankrupt and has had several successive, collapsing governments?

Why would Poland ally with Germany after Germany kicked out all the Poles? Also, "Hitler's brand of racism," as you call it, was extremely anti-Slavic. Why would the Polish government adopt it?

- Peace Treaty - Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, and Czechoslovakia get remnants of Poland, and Russia exiles the remaining Poles across Siberia. Germany retains its 1871 borders plus Alsace-Lorraine and Sudetenland. Austria is demilitarized, and claims only the portion of Bohemia immediately adjacent to it. German colonies in Africa remain German. France is broken into Burgundy and France, and Normandy is given to the UK. The Ottomans in Turkey are expelled, and the entirety of Turkey is given back to the Greeks, plus former southern territory once belonging to the Byzantine Empire, what we would call Syria, Lebanon, Israel, and Jordan.
Why is France broken up? It's just going to reunite as soon as it can.

Why does Germany get to keep her colonies? They just lost the war, after all... And they get to keep Alsace-Lorraine, too. Just who won this war, anyway? How could Germany lose, even, from a starting position like that? Dominating France (which, in turn, dominates Spain) means there's no Western Front, which means ALL German supplies and everything goes to the Eastern Front, and I don't think the Russians (or Soviets? You never mentioned a Soviet Revolution, which implies to me that Russia never constitutionalized and industrialized, which means they're doubly screwed).

How are the Ottomans expelled if they don't exist anymore?

Does Greece even want to adopt the former Byzantine Empire? Can they really deal with all of the ethnic Turks and Arabs, who are almost entirely Muslim?

- under the UN, the nation of Israel is created, in alliance to the Greek state, now called Byzantium.
And, unlike OTL, there are absolutely no problems creating it?

[quote1949 - final expulsion of Turks and Arabs from Byzantine lands. Middle East is redrawn, divided from Africa by the Byzantine state.[/quote]

This is such a massive movement of populations I don't even know how you could take it seriously. Imagine moving all the Ethnic Arabs and Turks out of the areas of the Middle East you've listed today; it doesn't work! Where do they all go? Who comes into replace them? No way Greece has a large enough population. How does the international community not completely condemn what's going on here? How is it acceptable at all?
 
Also, Bohemia wasn't even an independent nation at the time (I'm fairly certain, anyway; wasn't it part of Austria-Hungary?), so how do they invade Germany, and capture all of Bavaria no less? Hell, they conquer more territory than

Yes, Bohemia is part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
 
First incredilous thing noted: Germany allying with Britain. Why on earth would Germany ally with a country pretty far away whilst growing to hate a neighbor and ally that had been made (out of a few states) as far back as the 1600s?! You'd need the POD way farther back.

Second noted: France joined with England because of Germany's radical growth. The two shared a common fear against Germany. I can see France first joining with England, followed by Germany if the cause of war was for Germany to gain parts of Austria-Hungary. Now if the cause was for the Rhine, Germany would have to beat France to signing with England.

Third noted: As others have said, there's no way in heaven, hell, or earth that an Austrian-ruling (loser of WWI meaning Great Depression, ertc.)Hitler will ever be able to force Germany, the victor of WWI.

Fourth noted: France's invasion of Spain will have caused WWII because not only would Spain have been neutral (much like the issue that started Britain's involvement in WWI OTL) Western Europe will have greatly retaliated and declared war before 1939 if the French invasion takes place before that date.

Fifth noted: Russia will not be willing nor able to recover from a probably menacing loss in WWI and fight against Austria-Germany, the leader of which an ally in WWI. Unless Russia makes an amazing recovery and has some huge dispute with Austria-Germany, this is very, VERY unlikely.
 
First incredilous thing noted: Germany allying with Britain. Why on earth would Germany ally with a country pretty far away...
You could say the same thing about France and Russia in OTL. In the late 19th century and early 20th, there were some chances for Germany to be on better terms with Britain. If they hadn't supported the Boers say, or not sent the fleet to Morocco in the Nineteen aughts.

whilst growing to hate a neighbor and ally that had been made (out of a few states) as far back as the 1600s?! You'd need the POD way farther back.

For one thing, Germany was not united at all until the 1800s. For a lot of the history of the HRE (okay, post-1300) Austria has been pretty antagonistic against Germany. They were more likely to ally against the German states to further their own interests, rather than being friends with Germany. In the 19th century Austria also fought several wars with Prussia and other German states.
 
First incredilous thing noted: Germany allying with Britain. Why on earth would Germany ally with a country pretty far away whilst growing to hate a neighbor and ally that had been made (out of a few states) as far back as the 1600s?! You'd need the POD way farther back.

Second noted: France joined with England because of Germany's radical growth. The two shared a common fear against Germany. I can see France first joining with England, followed by Germany if the cause of war was for Germany to gain parts of Austria-Hungary. Now if the cause was for the Rhine, Germany would have to beat France to signing with England.

Third noted: As others have said, there's no way in heaven, hell, or earth that an Austrian-ruling (loser of WWI meaning Great Depression, ertc.)Hitler will ever be able to force Germany, the victor of WWI.

Fourth noted: France's invasion of Spain will have caused WWII because not only would Spain have been neutral (much like the issue that started Britain's involvement in WWI OTL) Western Europe will have greatly retaliated and declared war before 1939 if the French invasion takes place before that date.

Fifth noted: Russia will not be willing nor able to recover from a probably menacing loss in WWI and fight against Austria-Germany, the leader of which an ally in WWI. Unless Russia makes an amazing recovery and has some huge dispute with Austria-Germany, this is very, VERY unlikely.

An Anglo-German Alliance is not too far-fetched. Joseph Chamberlain made IIRC three attempts to secure an alliance with the Germans, but was rebuffed. If you fiddle around with this, I believe you can get a plausible alliance. Of course, if this path is used, then there needs to be a whole lot more clarification on the date for the formation of the alliance.
 
The POD of this AH, a Anglo-German alliance wouldn't be impossible (and could provide for an interesting timeline) though it would be unstable. How this timeline develops is however, and is pretty ASB, with multiple contradictions with as the grand finale Greece (for doing nothing but getting conquered really) receiving all of Turkey plus much of the Middle-East, turning into the Byzantine Empire...

But I do think that the POD could develop for an interesting timeline. I'd assume that Russia and France would still ally. Germany and the Ottoman Empire too and probably Austria-Hungary too (Russia on their border). As IRL, Serbians would probably oppose the Hapsburg and be supported in this by Russia and probably Italy, Romania and Bulgaria are still wild cards. And I guess a major divergence from RL would Belgium, both during and after the war.
 

JJohnson

Banned
Were I to tweak the original timeline that Greece retakes or is given back Constantinople and the Greek-facing portion of Asia Minor, say, roughly the 1263 borders of the Byzantine Empire, would that be more plausible?

James
 
Were I to tweak the original timeline that Greece retakes or is given back Constantinople and the Greek-facing portion of Asia Minor, say, roughly the 1263 borders of the Byzantine Empire, would that be more plausible?

James

Not when everything else is utterly impossible
 

ninebucks

Banned
And to think, I was going to stop reading at the second line in order to pick out the anachronistic reference to Germany signing a treaty with 'England'. And then I would have missed out the rest of this traversty.

But seriously, here's a tip: when writing a TL, pay no regard whatsoever as to how the TL will 'end'. Instead, plan it instance by instance, after every event, have a good think and try and consider how every nation will react to these events. In this scenario, its blatantly obvious that you decided in advance what you wanted to happen, (i.e. France would be donkeypunched and the Byzantine Empire would be pulled out of nonexistance for no reason whatsoever), and in order to achieve those goals, you've thrown all semblance of plausibility out of the window - every other line contradicts what has previously been said and things happen for no reason, (as others' have pointed out).
 

JJohnson

Banned
Wow...thanks for the...moderately....constructive criticism. I wrote the timeline in a hurry, yes. I did have two main goals in Europe - united Germany retaining 1871 borders minus Alsace-Lorraine, and a Greece given back Constantinople. It's a rough outline, sure. But how about some advice as to how to get that happening? What would Germany have to do between 1871 and 1914 to not end up on the losing side of that conflict? Who would be inspired or motivated to redraw Europe, giving the entirety of Constantinople back to Greece? I can get the 'utterly impossible' as originally laid out, but how about what would lead to these two criteria?

James
 
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