Alternate partitions of Germany: How would they work?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Thanksforallthefish, Feb 11, 2019.

  1. Thanksforallthefish King of Dolphins

    Mar 13, 2012
    Territorios Espaciales Argentinos
    So, in OTL, the defeated Nazi Germany was partitioned into 4 occupation zones that eventually became the FRG and the GDR. This was mostly decided at the Yalta Conference.

    But in that same conference, there were alternate plans. Much discussed is the Morgenthau Plan, especially for the harsh nature of its occupation. But what I cannot find is what exactly the North and South German states were supposed to be. Occupation zones?


    There's also Roosevelt's Plan which involved a *return*, though not exactly, to a pre-unification Germany:


    and Churchill's plan, which oh geez I have no idea how would this even work:


    Worth noting is that the Oder-Neisse Line was also decided at Yalta. What would a Germany keeping its eastern territories would look like? What about Poland?

    How do you think these plans would have gone? What role would these state play in the Cold War? My guess is the allies would attempt to rekindle regional identities in the Roosevelt plan, though I don't think they would be too successful. Churchill's plan to me seems very unlikely, but it could have resulted in a Austria-Hungary and a South Germany.

    Any other thoughts?
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  2. BigBlueBox Well-Known Member

    Jun 21, 2017
    Southern California
    Churchill's plan was bizarre. Why would Hungary be added to South Germany? Was this supposed to be a Neo-Habsburg state? And why does West Germany only have the Rhineland?
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  3. David T Well-Known Member

    Nov 8, 2007
    Churchill first proposed his plan at Teheran. It had very little chance of being accepted, because Stalin was firmly opposed to the idea of a Danubian federation. (He also rejected the idea that there was any distinction between Prussians and other Germans.) Here is the transcript of the discussion at Teheran:

    Roosevelt: The question of Germany.

    Stalin: What are the proposals on this matter?

    Roosevelt: The partition of Germany.

    Churchill: I am for partitioning Germany. But I should like to consider the question of partitioning Prussia. I am for separating Bavaria and the other provinces from Germany.

    Roosevelt: In order to stimulate our discussion on this question, I want to set forth a plan for partitioning Germany into five states, which I personally drew up two months ago.

    Churchill: I should like to stress that the root of evil in Germany is Prussia.

    Roosevelt: I should like us to have a picture of the whole before we speak of the separate components. In my opinion, Prussia must be weakened as far as possible, and reduced in size. Prussia should constitute the first independent part of Germany. The second part of Germany should include Hannover and the north-western regions of Germany. The third part -- Saxony and the Leipzig area. The fourth part -- Hessen Province, Darmstadt, Kassel and the areas to the south of the Rhine, and also the old towns of Westphalia. The fifth part -- Bavaria, Baden, W├╝rttemberg. Each of these five parts would be an independent state. In addition, the regions of the Kiel Canal and Hamburg should be separated from Germany. These regions would be administered by the United Nations, or the four Powers. The Ruhr and the Saar must be placed either under the control of the United Nations or under the trusteeship of the whole of Europe. That is my proposal. I must add that it is merely exploratory.

    Churchill: You have said a mouthful. I think there are two questions: one -- destructive, the other -- constructive. I have two ideas: the first is to isolate Prussia from the rest of Germany; the second is to separate Germany's southern provinces -- Bavaria, Baden, W├╝rttemberg, the Palatinate, from the Saar to Saxony inclusive. I would keep Prussia in strict condition. I think it would be easy to sever the southern provinces from Prussia and include them in a Danubian federation. The people who live in the Danube basin are not the cause of war. At any rate, I would give the Prussians harsher treatment than the other Germans. The southern Germans will not start a new war.

    Stalin: I do not like the plan for new associations of states. If it is decided to partition Germany no new associations need be set up. Whether it is five or six states, and two regions into which Roosevelt proposes to divide Germany, this plan of Roosevelt's to weaken Germany can be examined. Like us, Churchill will soon have to deal with great masses of Germans. Churchill will then see that it is not only the Prussians who are fighting in the German Army but also Germans from the other provinces of Germany. Only the Austrians, when surrendering, shout "I'm Austrian", and our soldiers accept them. As for the Germans from Germany's other provinces they fight with equal doggedness. Regardless of how we approach the partitioning of Germany there is no need to set up some new association of Danubian states lacking vitality. Hungary and Austria must exist separately. Austria existed as a separate state until it was seized.

    Roosevelt: I agree with Marshal Stalin, in particular, that there is no difference between Germans from the various German provinces. Fifty years ago there was a difference but now all German soldiers are alike. It is true that this does not apply to the Prussian officers.

    Churchill: I should not like to be understood as not favouring the partition of Germany. But I wanted to say that if Germany is broken up into several parts without these parts being combined then, as Marshal Stalin said, the time will come when the Germans will unite.

    Stalin: There are no steps that could exclude the possibility of Germany's unification.
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  4. Odinson Talk Nerdy To Me

    Nov 27, 2018
    The Constitutional Monarchy of Virginia
    If Roosevelt's plan was decided on, I could see Prussia falling under the Soviet Union's influence. Probably Saxony as well. Hanover, for historical reasons, I see leaning towards Britain as well as America, with the others being USA aligned.