Alternate Partition of Germany

[Jimbrock]

As we all know, Germany was divided into roughly eight parts post-war, four zones in Austria and four in the rest of Germany. This eventually was reduced into three states, West Germany, East Germany, and Austria.

Now, there were of course other proposals for dividing Germany, and three of these can be found here. The Churchill plan focuses on breaking Germany into two states, the Southern one strangely includes Hungary, so lets pretend it doesnt for now. The Roosvelt plan breaks Germany into several small states, and the Morgenthau plan seeks to remove German industry by annexing most of west Germany.
What do you think will be the consequences of these plans? I am mostly interested in the Churchill Plan (minus Hungary, of course) and what Southern and Northern German states would officially call themselves, but I think all these alternate partitions are worthy of discussion.

 

[The Kiat]

FDR sure didn't like Germany.

 

[Kome]

FDR sure didn't like Germany.

Lol, he read too much balkanization stories probably.

Anyways i think South Germany with Hungary would be awesome.

 

[Jimbrock]

Lol, he read too much balkanization stories probably.

Anyways i think South Germany with Hungary would be awesome.

Despite the fact that Hungary isnt German at all...
I mean, what was Churchill thinking?
I wonder if the capital for a South German state would be Munich, or Vienna.

 

[The Kiat]

Despite the fact that Hungary isnt German at all...
I mean, what was Churchill thinking?
I wonder if the capital for a South German state would be Munich, or Vienna.

I vote for Budapest!

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

It's interesting that the Churchill plan conserves Germany's 1919 borders, and reunites Austria with Hungary.

It also stands out that all these alternate plan reckon without the last host - Stalin that is. Even Morgentau, who wants to keep Germany small and weak for all times to come, leaves it with Silesia and Prussia - contrary to Soviet expansion plans.


As to the consequences:
The more Germany is crippled, the closer it comes to Versailles, and the more danger there is not only of a second Hilter, but of political chaos in the center of Europe.
That would be a relatively risky situation in the Cold War.

The situation has to be considered under the premises of the ensuing Cold War.
I cannot imagine more than a small state like Austria in Central Europe stays neutral in the Cold War. A nominally neutral state would become a political football between the two blocks. If discussion the partitioning plans, it is crucial to consider the question who gets what, where "who" are the two alliance systems yet to be formed.

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

I wonder if the capital for a South German state would be Munich, or Vienna.

Definitely Vienna. Even if Hungary is not included.


Another thought: For all three alternate plans, and for all possibilities of giving the NATO to come one and the then-future Warsaw Pact one other of the German states, the Iron Curtain would be much longer than IOTL, geographically (e.g. seems twice as long for the Churchill plan and a communist North). This raises some military questions, which I am certainly not able to answer ...

 

[Jimbrock]

I assume that such proposals would probably follow Allied capture of Berlin, and maybe Vienna. Also, it would require a much weaker France, maybe the last German soldiers followed Hitler's mad request to burn Paris? Or would that only strengthen their resolve?

I wonder if they would call them the "Republic of North/South Germany" or think up some other name. And should they reunite, say when this Cold War is finished, there'll be another Grossdeutchland, which would probably not go down well with the rest of Europe...

 

[lothaw]

Despite the fact that Hungary isnt German at all...
I mean, what was Churchill thinking?
I wonder if the capital for a South German state would be Munich, or Vienna.

It was probably some crazy attempt to get Hungary out of the communist camp.

 

[bobbis14]

Why does Churchills South German state not inclued the Sudetenland?, also why is he not determined to hold onto the Rhineland?

Edit: Retconned

 

[charl]

I'd imagine a south/north divided Germany would both call themselves "Germany", with some ideological stuff thrown in for good measure ("German People's Republic", "The German Democratic Federation", "The extra-super democratic so-totally-not-a-dictatorship of Germany" and so on and so forth.) A north/south divide with two ideologically similar German states would probably lead to them uniting pretty fast, especially if they are on the same side of the Cold War (though the other side might complain and delay the process somewhat).

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

It was probably some crazy attempt to get Hungary out of the communist camp.

Hungary was the most probable candidate for a neutral state outside Germany-Austria. Imho this concept would have been as bound to fail as the idea of a united neutral Germany in 1953.

 

[Jimbrock]

It was probably some crazy attempt to get Hungary out of the communist camp.

Well, in that case, the Communists would probably get Northern Germany instead.

Why does Churchills North German state not inclued the Sudetenland?

Because the Allies wanted to remove territory from Germany, not add more?

I'd imagine a south/north divided Germany would both call themselves "Germany", with some ideological stuff thrown in for good measure ("German People's Republic", "The German Democratic Federation", "The extra-super democratic so-totally-not-a-dictatorship of Germany" and so on and so forth.) A north/south divide with two ideologically similar German states would probably lead to them uniting pretty fast, especially if they are on the same side of the Cold War (though the other side might complain and delay the process somewhat).

This depends on whether they are indeed divided, one state going to the Communists and one to the Capitalists, but if they are just semi-neutral vaguely ideological states, they would soon reunite and most probably become a power again.

 

[bobbis14]

Because the Allies wanted to remove territory from Germany, not add more?

Then why have they added Hungary to the South German state, surely if anywhere the ethnically german region of the Sudentenland would be apt; along with its Industry to help rebuild Germany

 

[Jimbrock]

Then why have they added Hungary to the South German state, surely if anywhere the ethnically german region of the Sudentenland would be apt; along with its Industry to help rebuild Germany

I still cant fathom why they would possibly want Hungary to be part of Germany. And they didnt want Germany to have industry. Also, the WWII peace settlement has nothing at all to do with ethnic borders. Look up 'expulsion of Germans from Poland and the Sudetenland after the Second World War' and you'll see how little it mattered. Hell, look at Germany's eastern border and you'll see that race had nothing to do with it.

 

[bobbis14]

I still cant fathom why they would possibly want Hungary to be part of Germany. And they didnt want Germany to have industry. Also, the WWII peace settlement has nothing at all to do with ethnic borders. Look up 'expulsion of Germans from Poland and the Sudetenland after the Second World War' and you'll see how little it mattered. Hell, look at Germany's eastern border and you'll see that race had nothing to do with it.

Actualy re-building Germany rather than punishing it was the main focus of the peace treaty; well at least for the Western allies. The explution of Germans in Silesia etc had to do with the fact that the USSR nicked Polish territory along their eastern border and so some jesture had to be shown to the new Polish state.

All I'm saying is that Sudentenland seems like a far more logical addition to South Germany than Hungary.

 

[Jimbrock]

Actualy re-building Germany rather than punishing it was the main focus of the peace treaty; well at least for the Western allies. The explution of Germans in Silesia etc had to do with the fact that the USSR nicked Polish territory along their eastern border and so some jesture had to be shown to the new Polish state.

All I'm saying is that Sudentenland seems like a far more logical addition to South Germany than Hungary.

Yes, of course the Western Allies wanted a stable barrier from the USSR. But in OTL, the Soviets captured Berlin, so they had a big say, they really wanted to punish Germany.

 

[bobbis14]

Yes, of course the Western Allies wanted a stable barrier from the USSR. But in OTL, the Soviets captured Berlin, so they had a big say, they really wanted to punish Germany.

Alot of the want to punish Germany was seen as necissary, I'm talking in the respect of taking materials etc from Germany to rebuild Russia; the western allies wanted more than a barrier from the USSR but wanted to build an American ecconomic empire and a stable Germany and central Europe was the only way to do that.

 

[Jimbrock]

Alot of the want to punish Germany was seen as necissary, I'm talking in the respect of taking materials etc from Germany to rebuild Russia; the western allies wanted more than a barrier from the USSR but wanted to build an American ecconomic empire and a stable Germany and central Europe was the only way to do that.

The British maybe, and the Americans, but the French were a little bitter too. Not to mention all the Eastern Europeans...

 

[bobbis14]

The British maybe, and the Americans, but the French were a little bitter too. Not to mention all the Eastern Europeans...

The French and Eastern Europeans had little influence over what was happening, that was being decided in Washington and Moscow