Alternate Midway - the US Runs Up the Score

Hi, I am new here and I am working on an ATL for the Battle of Midway but unlike most ATLs about Midway that have the Japanese winning the battle, in this one the US wins even bigger which IMO they should have done. I have been studying the Battle of Midway since I first read Ira Peck’s book when I was ten (I am 42 now) and I have long been frustrated by the tendency of many to view the US victory as “miraculous” where luck on the part of the US and bad decisions by Nagumo cost Japan a sure win. To me the fact that there were over 150 American land and carrier based aircraft headed for the Kido Butai before the Japanese had the slightest inkling that US carriers were in the area is evidence that the only thing that saved the Japanese from an even bigger drubbing was poor tactical execution on the part of the Americans in the form of poor navigation, poor marksmanship, poor deck launching procedures, and poor strike coordination. Overall, in the first wave of strikes that day, the US launched from three carriers and one land base 203 aircraft against the Japanese, 177 of which were strike aircraft (plus 26 fighters). Frankly, I think it is rather sad that out of all of those aircraft, only about 10 dive bombers actually managed to put steel on target that morning and had the US forces done just a little better, they could have (or should have) rolled up all four of Nagumo’s carriers by 1030 that morning. RADM Spruance certainly thought so. He commented in his after action report to Nimitz that had Hornet’s air group performed better, the US may not have lost the Yorktown. My PODs are plausible and based on realistic alternative decisions – the Mark XIII torpedo still does not work, the VT squadrons will still have TBDs and not TBFs, US radio communications capabilities and procedures are still going to be lousy, and the US carrier groups are still going to have trouble launching coordinated deck load strikes. That said, I think there are a few key areas where decisions can be altered in a realistic manner:

First Major POD – Midway’s commanders elect to send VMF-221 as escorts for Midway’s strike aircraft instead of holding them back for air defense. I believe this is a realistic POD because according to the Marines at Midway, http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/Midway/USMC-M-Midway-3.html, Nimitz instructed Midway’s commanders to employ Midway’s aircraft all out against the Japanese carriers and to leave the defense of Midway to its guns. This also tracks with Colonel Shannon’s orders to his garrison regarding the importance of protecting Midway’s strike aircraft so they can hit back at the enemy. I have no doubt that the rookie Marine fighter pilots would have still been given flying lessons by their Japanese counterparts flying CAP over Nagumo’s carriers but would it have kept pressure off of enough of the strike aircraft to make a difference? At different times that morning Nagumo’s carriers were vulnerable. As Parschall and Tully point out in Shattered Sword, there were only nine fighters on CAP when Henderson’s SBDs attacked at about 0810 that morning. Would the presence of 12-14 Marine fighters have made a difference at that moment? Even without fighter escort, eight of Henderson's SBDs still survived the Japanese CAP long enough to release weapons against the Hiryu and they scored enough near misses that the people on the bridge of the Akagi thought that Hiryu had been hit. What would 16 dive bombers free of harassment from the Zeroes and delivering a fairly cohesive attack have accomplished? In my ATL, this course of action is successful and Henderson’s dive bombers manage to score two hits and one damaging near miss on Hiryu that knocks her out of action. With Hiryu damaged, going slow, and unable to maneuver, LtCol Sweeney’s B-17s manage to put one of their 500 pound bombs on Hiryu’s flight deck, which drives the final nail into Hiryu’s coffin. Other attacks such as Midway’s torpedo planes, the SB2U Vindicators, as well as the B-17 attacks on the other carriers do not succeed in putting steel on target but the unwelcome presence of the Marine fighters with the attacking aircraft does lead to attrition against Nagumo’s fighter squadrons, albeit the Marines pay a stiff price for their heroism.

Second Major POD – The Flight to Nowhere, I am also playing with the Hornet’s air group and the whole issue of the "Flight to Nowhere." I am familiar with the literature on this subject and the compelling arguments for a course of 265 True by CDR Ring and the speculation on why and I particularly like John Lundstrom's theory that Mitscher ordered the course because he believed the HAG would find the two carriers that LT Ady did not report if they flew north of the reported location from the PBYs. In my ATL the "The Flight to Nowhere" occurs as usual but when VB-8 peels off at about 0930, LCDR Christopher “Ruff” Johnson plots a different course – one that is based on a calculation of where VT-8 should be at that time based on when VT-8 left the formation at 0820, its course, and the cruising speed of a loaded TBD Devastator (not very fast). Based on my plotting using various accounts this would have taken Johnson and VB-8 south east on a course of about 125 degrees as opposed to the 135 degree course he actually flew in the OTL that took him too far south of Nagumo’s carriers. At 1015 he probably would have been able see ships off to his left more or less due east about 25 miles away (he’s now about 10 minutes behind McCluskey who saw Nagumo’s carriers at 1005). A turn to the east would have put VB-8 on the outskirts of the First Air Fleet just in time for Ruff Johnson to watch his USNA ‘26 classmates Max Leslie and Wade McCluskey go to town on Akagi, Kaga, and Soryu. With no carriers left in visual range and not enough fuel for a search, Johnson would have gone after the next best target, in this case a battleship. In my ATL, Johnson radio’s Ring that three enemy carriers on are on fire and he is diving on a battleship (Kirishima). Preoccupied with the destruction happening around them as well as VT-3’s still developing attack against the Soryu (remember Hiryu is already out of the picture so VT-3 cannot attack Hiryu), Japanese lookouts fail to notice the squadron of dive bombers diving on Kirishima until VB-8’s aircraft are well into their dives. Two 1000 pound bombs hit Kirishima forward of the bridge while a third bomb is dropped down Kirishima’s funnel where it detonates deep inside the ship. Kirishima explodes in a manner similar to HMS Barham and USS Arizona.

First Minor POD – In this POD, LCDR John Waldron’s VT-8 gets fighter support from LT Jim Gray’s VF-6. In the OTL Gray followed VT-8 to the Japanese carriers because he thought it was VT-6 but he then lost the torpedo planes in the clouds and never got the radio call to come down and provide support (he had worked this out with LCDR Gene Lindsey of VT-6). In this ATL, Gray detaches two of his fighters to follow VT-8 down and when they get attacked by the CAP, one of the fighter pilots radios for help. This POD will have no impact on the course of the battle I am simply adding it in for fun. In this POD, due to direct fighter support a few of VT-8’s aircraft survive including LDCR Waldron and this will allow me to write up a really nasty confrontation between Waldron and Mitscher on the bridge of the Hornet after Waldron returns about an hour before Ring give or take a few minutes. Waldron will also claim one definite and one probable hit on Soryu but in reality only Waldron’s torpedo hits and being a Mark XIII it does not explode.

Second Possible Minor POD – Based on my read of a number of sources, LtCol Ira Kimes, the MAG-22 commander really wanted Midway’s aircraft to make a coordinated attack against Nagumo’s carriers. However, due to different cruising speeds of the attack aircraft and the lack of an overall strike leader, the different groups proceeded individually and attacked individually with the USN TBFs and USAAF B-26s not even bothering to gather at “Point Affirm” twenty miles east of Midway where Kimes wanted all of his attack aircraft to gather after launch. In this POD, Kimes – an experienced SBD Dauntless pilot – flies one of Henderson’s SBDs and acts as an airborne strike leader/coordinator/mother hen and manages to cobble together a fairly well coordinated attack. This will not change any results of the battle – Henderson’s SBDs will get a carrier and that will pretty much be it – but it will lead to more of Midway’s attacking aircraft surviving and returning home to fight another day. Another possibility is that Kimes commandeers one of the VT-8 TBFs and sits in the middle seat and acts as a sort of airborne controller although this may be a little too out of the box. I may not do this one, it is not really necessary.

The rest of June 4th will be marked by a significant amount of confusion on the part of the US forces. On the carriers they will not know about the successful strike on Hiryu by Midway’s bombers so a significant debate will take place on whether or not there are one or even two Japanese carriers still out there since Leslie, Johnson, McCluskey, and Thach will all report seeing three not four Japanese carriers on fire (Hiryu will be well to the south at that point). Waldron will claim one definite and one probable on a Soryu class carrier (that won’t be the case but he will not know that) and it will take some time for the afternoon scouting missions to figure out the status of the Japanese fleet, particularly since Fletcher’s VS-5 scouting mission launched at 1130 (consistent with OTL) will search to the northwest and they will find nothing but empty ocean.

I have a time line for June 4th fleshed out that I will post in a couple of days and then I will get to work on June 5th. Right now I am spending a lot of time with maps and plotting boards to make sure certain scenarios are plausible based on where ships were and when.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Interesting idea, although how much better the U.S. could do at Midway is really open to question. They sank all four large carriers, along with a heavy cruiser and crippled a second cruiser. Yamamoto is too far away, and the Invasion force is in the wrong direction to support a strike.

As an aside, VT squadron Lt. Commander's don't have "nasty confrontations" with four stripe Captains (and a frocked four stripper at that). They may have them with the air wing commander, behind closed doors and IF they went to the Academy together, but they don't go after the CO. Well, let me rephrase that, they don't do it twice.
 
You do not even have to hit the Japanese battleship on the first wave. Just eliminate all four carriers ability to launch any more planes.

The longer term effects of having one more US carrier survive, although the Yorktown still needed repairs from Coral Sea action would be huge.

With a massive loss at Midway, would the Japanese try to extend themselves in the Solomons, Guadalcnal? Maybe not.

I see the US marines invading Saipan and Guam in 1943 and using these invasions to sap Japanese strength like Guadalcanal did.

Bomber bases are set up in the Marianas. Iwo Jima invaded in 1944, escort bases set up.

Perhaps even a more successful Midway leads to even more units being assigned to Europe. The Pacific is just a marine and navy theatre and army divisions that were tagged for the Pacific are able to broaden the soft underbelly of the Med. Possible, less landing craft would be needed in the Pacific as well, making more available for the Atlantic. D-Day still occurs in 1944, but 1944 not only sees Anvil, but also sees US troops land in Dalmatia to aid the Italian front (army divisions that were marked for Philippines are now used in the Med theater.

Just some thoughts, and I am interested in seeing how the bigger picture of the war is effected by the survival of the Yorktown at Midway.

(Just to note, it would be ironic if the Yorktown is spared because all four Japanese carriers are put out of action with the first wave before they launch a counter strike, just to see the Yorktown sunk by desperate Japanese submarines)
 
submarine

I think it's an interesting timelines, in the past the only alternate histories I've read about the Battle of Midway are about a bigger Japanese victory. Never on about a bigger U.S. victory.
Also let's say that the Hiryu is put out of action earlier in the day which saves the Yorktown, what about the Japanese sub that sealed her fate in the otl, does the Yorktown still get torpedoed, or is she already out of the area?
 
Interesting to see this. The earlier loss of the HIRYU along with the other changes will probably butterfly the location of the YORKTOWN which is much more mobile than the sub that finished her off - given the timing of the PODs the YORKTOWN's position will be moved a great deal more than that of the sub. The timing of the POD means that most of the Japanese subs are out of position to shoot at any American carriers as in OTL.
 
I think it's an interesting timelines, in the past the only alternate histories I've read about the Battle of Midway are about a bigger Japanese victory. Never on about a bigger U.S. victory.
Also let's say that the Hiryu is put out of action earlier in the day which saves the Yorktown, what about the Japanese sub that sealed her fate in the otl, does the Yorktown still get torpedoed, or is she already out of the area?

If Yorktown isn't crippled by the airstrikes, the sub won't find her since she will be with the rest of the task force.
 
Aside for airpower, it might also be useful to use the present submarines more agressively, even with their poor quality torpedoes. Rather than using the subs for patrol primarily, give them an alternate secondary objective to form hunter packs to hunt down transports primarily. The Japanese were not aware yet of the poor quality of the torpedoes of the USN, so any submarine threat would be taken seriously.
 
Aside for airpower, it might also be useful to use the present submarines more agressively, even with their poor quality torpedoes. Rather than using the subs for patrol primarily, give them an alternate secondary objective to form hunter packs to hunt down transports primarily. (1) The Japanese were not aware yet of the poor quality of the torpedoes of the USN, (2) so any submarine threat would be taken seriously. (3)

1) This would require a degree of leadership in COMSUBPAC not shown OTL IMVHO.:mad: Certainly not in terms of taking responsibility at the top. Also, wouldn't pre-positioning the subs in offensive wolfpacks in a region (the Central Pacific) where you wouldn't expect them (what would they be doing there, other than to sink incoming invasion forces? Waitaminute...!:eek:). ONE submarine is one thing, wolfpacking in the world's biggest ocean is another. There ARE no "shipping lanes" between the Marshalls (that is where they set off, yes?:eek::confused:) and Midway, right?

2) Problem: The US Navy doesn't know the Mark XIV is POS either, and God help any sub skipper who suggests otherwise to COMSUBPAC.:mad:

3) AFAIK, didn't they anyway, when it came to protecting their fleets at sea (as opposed to convoys)?
 
One interesting PoD, one of the B-26s downed in the initial American attacks came very close to hitting Akagi's bridge, so if it had hit, that would have taken out Nagumo and most of his command staff. Alternatively the pilot could come in lower, slam into the deck and write Akagi off for the rest of the battle, or even get lucky and hit one of the av-gas tanks.
 
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GarethC

Donor
If Park and VMF-221 go in with Henderson, what are the effects on the Japanese strike on Midway? If there are no defending aircraft, will the A6Ms take on a flak suppression role (as they did at Pearl), incurring higher losses themselves but both preserving more of the strike planes and allowing them to make more accurate undisturbed attacks?

If that is the case, will Tomonaga tell Nagumo that Midway has been adequately supressed for a landing to be practical?

If he does so, what effect will that have on Nagumo's preparations? Will he be able to get more planes off from the remaining 3 undamaged carriers before Waldron turns up and disrupts flight operations?
 
Additional POD: USS Nautilus gets lucky. Nautilus fired two torpedo salvos, scoring no hits on the first (probably at Kirishima) and one hit on the already burning Soryu (or Kaga) in the second, but it didn't detonate. What if Nautilus gets hits (and detonations) on Kirishima earlier on the morning of the 4th?
 
Given the uselessness of early war B-17 actions against moving ships, I offer up the following (minor) POD.

Instead to going out armed with bombs, the B-17's take off with a maximum ammunition/fuel load, and once they arrive in the proximity of the Japanese taskforce, they shadow it and continue to give out it's location, thus no carrier strikes fly off into the wild blue yonder (they may still have trouble with garbled radio communications, plotting errors, and such) for lack of current information on the Japanese fleet's location.

So, with such a small POD, we give up the historical results of zero hits scored by the midway based B-17's, and instead give the US carrier airgroups a much more informed chance of arriving at the enemy fleets location.

We also see a serious depletion of the Japanese fleets' CAP, as they have multiple fighters shot down, many others shot up, and the rest running out of fuel after engaging is a protracted battle with midway's 15 B-17's. Add this to the (Possibility) of a midway based fighter escort for the B-17's and...
 
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Additional POD: USS Nautilus gets lucky. Nautilus fired two torpedo salvos, scoring no hits on the first (probably at Kirishima) and one hit on the already burning Soryu (or Kaga) in the second, but it didn't detonate. What if Nautilus gets hits (and detonations) on Kirishima earlier on the morning of the 4th?

And just for fun we make Kirishima explode just in time for all dive bombing groups to see were the japanese fleet are and arrive just as the torpedo divisions have been shot down
 
rob2001 said:
does the Yorktown still get torpedoed, or is she already out of the area?
If Yorktown isn't hit, I-168 hasn't a chance to hit her.

In the same vein, tho: can Nautilus get credit for Hiryu? If Hiryu is hit & stopped, she'd be a sitting duck, & Brockman deserves it.

If not Brockman, what are the odds for Murphy in Tambor getting a better break?
 
First Major POD

The first POD is that the USN doesn’t drop the ball and Saratoga makes the battle. Game over for Nagumo. The second would be that Nimitz listens to Fletcher’s advice and concentrates all his carriers in one task force. The third would be that Nimitz shifts Hornet to TF-17 so that Fletcher’s experienced team would put Hornet’s strike on target. The fourth would be that instead of loading Midway up with green crews, Nimitz keeps most of the B-17’s at home, keeps Yorktown’s wing on the Yorktown, and places Saratoga’s wing at Midway. The fifth would be that Pye (TF-1) is placed about 200nm east of Fletcher’s position at dawn on the 4th, so that he can either cover a retreat, bug out independently, or advance west to support a victory.
Even without fighter escort, eight of Henderson's SBDs still survived the Japanese CAP long enough to release weapons against the Hiryu and they scored enough near misses that the people on the bridge of the Akagi thought that Hiryu had been hit. What would 16 dive bombers free of harassment from the Zeroes and delivering a fairly cohesive attack have accomplished?
16 near misses would be my guess. Nimitz shouldn't have messed around with half measures. Put Saratoga’s air wing on Midway, and Midway takes out a carrier, or even two.
Second Major POD – The Flight to Nowhere, I am also playing with the Hornet’s air group and the whole issue of the "Flight to Nowhere." I am familiar with the literature on this subject and the compelling arguments for a course of 265 True

One surviving witness to Waldron’s flight is Gray of Fighting Six, and Gray said that Waldron did not do Lundstrom’s ‘dogleg’. Gray watched the entire flight and he stated Waldron made a “beeline” straight at Nagumo.
Also let's say that the Hiryu is put out of action earlier in the day
But if Hiryu is hit early, wouldn’t it be more likely that Nagumo loses his complacency and makes an A-H decision after 0830 to launch his remaining 3 carriers ‘as is’ around 0930?
One interesting PoD, one of the B-26s downed in the initial American attacks came very close to hitting Akagi's bridge, so if it had hit, that would have taken out Nagumo and most of his command staff.
Yamaguchi almost certainly launches 2nd CAR DIV immediately after it is confirmed Nagumo is out of action.
 
1) This would require a degree of leadership in COMSUBPAC not shown OTL IMVHO.:mad: Certainly not in terms of taking responsibility at the top. Also, wouldn't pre-positioning the subs in offensive wolfpacks in a region (the Central Pacific) where you wouldn't expect them (what would they be doing there, other than to sink incoming invasion forces? Waitaminute...!:eek:). ONE submarine is one thing, wolfpacking in the world's biggest ocean is another. There ARE no "shipping lanes" between the Marshalls (that is where they set off, yes?:eek::confused:) and Midway, right?

2) Problem: The US Navy doesn't know the Mark XIV is POS either, and God help any sub skipper who suggests otherwise to COMSUBPAC.:mad:

3) AFAIK, didn't they anyway, when it came to protecting their fleets at sea (as opposed to convoys)?


The CInPac already had broken the IJN naval codes and had a general idea what was going to happen. They were roughly aware of the routes the IJN groups were going to taken, but not exactly when. Therefore the USN could have deployed the submarines present in two main forces, with one doing strategical patrol's and one acting as hunter group, laying a bit behind the patrolboats, awaiting sighting reports. In the OTL all boats were deployed on a patrolline, even in sectors where no IJN shipping was expected and in reality did not come even close to there.

A split up submarine force was theoretically possible, even with the six or so boats present. A huntergroup of two or three boats was more than enough, while the rest could be deployed as an inner patrolline as in the OTL, with backing of the longer range patrolline of PBY's.
 
HMS Warspite said:
give them an alternate secondary objective to form hunter packs to hunt down transports primarily.
Do you have even a vague notion how hard it is to find a single convoy at sea?:eek::eek::eek:
usertron2020 said:
wouldn't pre-positioning the subs in offensive wolfpacks
Wolfpack is the wrong word. They were positioned in a patrol line anticipating Japanese advance. None made contact. (It's a big damn ocean.:eek:)
HMS Warspite said:
any submarine threat would be taken seriously.
It was, insofar as IJN ASW was "serious".:rolleyes: (They had an extremely inflated idea of their effectiveness.:eek:)
usertron2020 said:
This would require a degree of leadership in COMSUBPAC not shown OTL IMVHO.:mad:
I don't think English was as incompetent as that. He refused to listen to complaints about the Mark XIV, but it wasn't as if he was Fife.:eek:
usertron2020 said:
There ARE no "shipping lanes" between the Marshalls (that is where they set off, yes?:eek::confused:) and Midway, right?
Not of any significance. Bear in mind, it's still likely they'll stick close to a Great Circle route, but that leaves a lot of leeway.
usertron2020 said:
Problem: The US Navy doesn't know the Mark XIV is POS either, and God help any sub skipper who suggests otherwise to COMSUBPAC.:mad:
Right on the first, not so much on the second. It's not like you'd get busted for complaining. English just wouldn't believe you.:rolleyes::mad: (Even Christie never busted anybody for it, & he was directly involved in the Mark VI project.)
 
Another additional POD: Fletcher sends the VS-5 (17 operational SBDs) combined with or shortly after the main strike. In OTL he was worried about the possible second carrier group, but now he wants to ensure the destruction of the already located carrier group by sending in the reserve.

Unescorted scout bombers arrive at the scene when there is one operational carrier and its CAP is low on ammo. One bomb hit should be enough to save Yorktown from air strikes and give US an even more decisive victory. And Yorktown will of course be repaired in time to support Hornet and Enterprise in Santa Cruz.
 
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