Alternate marriage for HRE Charles V

Charles I of Spain was at various points betrothed to a daughter of Francis I of France, however, both daughters ended up dying very young, preventing a marriage from happening.

What might've happened had one of the daughters let's say Louise who was born in 1515, had survived and lived to marry Charles and have issue?

Naturally, he doesn't marry his Portuguese cousin, preventing his children having claims to Portugal, possibly delaying the Iberian Union or removing it completely. What other consequences might this marriage bring?
 

Vitruvius

Donor
What if Henry VII's youngest daughter Katherine Tudor survived? She was born in 1503 so she'd be the perfect age (incidentally the same age as Charles' OTL wife Isabella).

By the time Charles is ready to marry her elder sister Mary Tudor had married Charles Brandon but Katherine would just be reaching marriageable age. The timing is also pretty good for Anglo-Spanish diplomatic relations. They could marry in 1520 when Charles visits England or 1522-24 when England joins the Italian War.

Katherine Tudor as Queen of Spain would certainly be interesting when her brother, Henry VIII, attempts to divorce her husband's aunt, Catherine of Aragon. The relationship between her and Henry VIII would be interesting as their mother died just after her birth and their father when she was only six, so Henry VIII may be like the big brother who helped raise her so she may be inclined to take his side. Or she may be closer to Queen Catherine, who may be like a foster mother, given that Catherine of Aragon is even older (18 years her elder) and would have been the principal female figure during Katherine's formative years.

Even if it does create some tangled family/political dynamics in the long run it puts some fresh blood into the Habsburg line which can't hurt.
 
Different Mary Tudor mate, the Mary Tudor who was betrothed to Charles was Henry VIII's sister and she was born in 1496

Charles V at different times was bethroted to both the Mary Tudor. The elder was his first fiancee but he was also engaged to his first cousin and future daughter-in-law before marrying Isabella
 
What if Henry VII's youngest daughter Katherine Tudor survived? She was born in 1503 so she'd be the perfect age (incidentally the same age as Charles' OTL wife Isabella).

By the time Charles is ready to marry her elder sister Mary Tudor had married Charles Brandon but Katherine would just be reaching marriageable age. The timing is also pretty good for Anglo-Spanish diplomatic relations. They could marry in 1520 when Charles visits England or 1522-24 when England joins the Italian War.

Katherine Tudor as Queen of Spain would certainly be interesting when her brother, Henry VIII, attempts to divorce her husband's aunt, Catherine of Aragon. The relationship between her and Henry VIII would be interesting as their mother died just after her birth and their father when she was only six, so Henry VIII may be like the big brother who helped raise her so she may be inclined to take his side. Or she may be closer to Queen Catherine, who may be like a foster mother, given that Catherine of Aragon is even older (18 years her elder) and would have been the principal female figure during Katherine's formative years.

Even if it does create some tangled family/political dynamics in the long run it puts some fresh blood into the Habsburg line which can't hurt.

Now this would be very interesting.

Would there even be a great question with butterflies and all? If there is, we could see Charles attempting to marry his son to Mary
 

Vitruvius

Donor
I've no idea, I've never considered such a match before. I suppose, had Katherine Tudor (KT) lived, another Princess at court could produce just enough butterflies during her brother's marriage that Catherine of Aragon (CoA) could have a son. But maybe not.

KT does seem like a great marriage candidate either way. I would assume that CoA would have at least some influence on her growing up. So KT would be well prepared for a Habsburg marriage and CoA will push for it hard if the two have a close relationship. And she's the perfect age to pull it off just as England and Spain are drawing together during the Italian War in the 1520s. So KT goes to Spain well versed in the etiquette of the uber-Catholic court, she acquits herself well there and doesn't stand out as a northern foreigner. That probably helps the marriage. The rest is just personal chemistry between her and Charles, who knows if it would be as solid a marriage as Charles and Isabella.

If the two are close and she has a son right away she'd be well positioned to pressure Charles when/if the great matter comes up a few years into their marriage. I just don't know how she'd come down. Family loyalty would lead her to Henry's side but again she might be quite close to CoA. So I'd assume she'd prefer some kind of mediation to taking sides.

Of course we should also consider a scenario where KT is poorly matched to Charles and the marriage is not a happy one. Say they don't get along and she still hasn't given him a son by the 1530. Then there's a bizarre reciprocity with Henry wanting out of his Spanish marriage and Charles out of his English one. Perhaps in such a scenario Charles pressures the Pope for dual annulments.
 
I've no idea, I've never considered such a match before. I suppose, had Katherine Tudor (KT) lived, another Princess at court could produce just enough butterflies during her brother's marriage that Catherine of Aragon (CoA) could have a son. But maybe not.

KT does seem like a great marriage candidate either way. I would assume that CoA would have at least some influence on her growing up. So KT would be well prepared for a Habsburg marriage and CoA will push for it hard if the two have a close relationship. And she's the perfect age to pull it off just as England and Spain are drawing together during the Italian War in the 1520s. So KT goes to Spain well versed in the etiquette of the uber-Catholic court, she acquits herself well there and doesn't stand out as a northern foreigner. That probably helps the marriage. The rest is just personal chemistry between her and Charles, who knows if it would be as solid a marriage as Charles and Isabella.

If the two are close and she has a son right away she'd be well positioned to pressure Charles when/if the great matter comes up a few years into their marriage. I just don't know how she'd come down. Family loyalty would lead her to Henry's side but again she might be quite close to CoA. So I'd assume she'd prefer some kind of mediation to taking sides.

Of course we should also consider a scenario where KT is poorly matched to Charles and the marriage is not a happy one. Say they don't get along and she still hasn't given him a son by the 1530. Then there's a bizarre reciprocity with Henry wanting out of his Spanish marriage and Charles out of his English one. Perhaps in such a scenario Charles pressures the Pope for dual annulments.

Hmm both are very intriguing scenarios, very intriguing.

Of course if there is no great matter, then the issue is redundant, but still, very interesting. Especially as it would mean that the Habsburgs from otl Philip's generation would be less inbred.
 
Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1500: d.1558) m. Katherine Tudor (b.1503: d.1531) (a), Louise of France (b.1515: d.1559) (b)

1a) Isabella of Austria (b.1521: d.1524)

2a) Charles II of Spain (b.1523: d.1570) m. Christina of Denmark (b.1521: d.1590) (a)

1a) Maria of Spain (b.1544)

2a) Alfonso of Spain (b.1546: d.1548)

3a) Charles III of Spain (b.1547)

4a) Isabella of Spain (b.1550)​

3a) Ferdinand of Austria, Duke of Burgundy (b.1524: d.1558) m. Sophia Jagiellon (b.1522: d.1575) (a)

1a) Philip V, Duke of Burgundy (b.1547)

2a) John of Burgundy (b.1550: d.1550)

3a) Elisabeth of Burgundy (b.1552)​

4a) Philip of Austria (b.1526: d.1528)

5a) Maria of Austria (b.1528: d.1600) m. Maximilian, King of Hungary, Bohemia and Croatia (b.1527: d.1576) (a)

1a) Anna of Hungary (b.1546)

2a) Maria of Hungary (b.1547)

3a) Ferdinand II of Hungary, Bohemia and Croatia (b.1549)

4a) Elisabeth of Hungary (b.1552)

5a) Matthias of Hungary (b.1555: d.1556)

6a) Margaret of Hungary (b.1558)​

6a) Philip of Austria (b.1530: d.1545)

7b) Joanna of Austria (b.1533: d.1599) m. Alfonso II d'Este, Duke of Ferrara (b.1533: d.1597) (a)

8b) Margaret of Austria (b.1534: d.1601) m. João Manuel, Prince of Portugal (b.1537: d.1554) (a)

1a) John IV of Portugal (b.1553)

2a) Catherine of Portugal (b.1554)​

9b) John of Austria, Duke of Milan (b.1537: d.1609) m. Eleonora Gonzaga (b.1531: 1599) (a)

1a) Isabella of Milan (b.1551)

2a) Madeleine of Milan (b.1553)

3a) Federico of Milan (b.1555: d.1556)

4a) John of Milan (b.1558)​

10b) Stillborn Boy (c.1540)

11b) Stillborn Boy (c.1541)

12b) Catherine of Austria (b.1543: d.1555)

13b) Stillborn Girl (c.1545)

14b) Stillborn Boy (c.1546)

15b) Claudia of Austria (b.1548: d.1613) m. Charles IX of France (b.1550: d.1574) (a)

1a) Marie Elisabeth of France (b.1569)

2a) Charles X of France (b.1571)

3a) Claude of France (b.1572)

4a) Louis, Duke of Anjou (b.1574)

5a) Elisabeth of France (b.1575: d.1575)​
 
Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1500: d.1558) m. Katherine Tudor (b.1503: d.1531) (a), Louise of France (b.1515: d.1559) (b)

1a) Isabella of Austria (b.1521: d.1524)

2a) Charles II of Spain (b.1523: d.1570) m. Christina of Denmark (b.1521: d.1590) (a)

1a) Maria of Spain (b.1544)

2a) Alfonso of Spain (b.1546: d.1548)

3a) Charles III of Spain (b.1547)

4a) Isabella of Spain (b.1550)​

3a) Ferdinand of Austria, Duke of Burgundy (b.1524: d.1558) m. Sophia Jagiellon (b.1522: d.1575) (a)

1a) Philip V, Duke of Burgundy (b.1547)

2a) John of Burgundy (b.1550: d.1550)

3a) Elisabeth of Burgundy (b.1552)​

4a) Philip of Austria (b.1526: d.1528)

5a) Maria of Austria (b.1528: d.1600) m. Maximilian, King of Hungary, Bohemia and Croatia (b.1527: d.1576) (a)

1a) Anna of Hungary (b.1546)

2a) Maria of Hungary (b.1547)

3a) Ferdinand II of Hungary, Bohemia and Croatia (b.1549)

4a) Elisabeth of Hungary (b.1552)

5a) Matthias of Hungary (b.1555: d.1556)

6a) Margaret of Hungary (b.1558)​

6a) Philip of Austria (b.1530: d.1545)

7b) Joanna of Austria (b.1533: d.1599) m. Alfonso II d'Este, Duke of Ferrara (b.1533: d.1597) (a)

8b) Margaret of Austria (b.1534: d.1601) m. João Manuel, Prince of Portugal (b.1537: d.1554) (a)

1a) John IV of Portugal (b.1553)

2a) Catherine of Portugal (b.1554)​

9b) John of Austria, Duke of Milan (b.1537: d.1609) m. Eleonora Gonzaga (b.1531: 1599) (a)

1a) Isabella of Milan (b.1551)

2a) Madeleine of Milan (b.1553)

3a) Federico of Milan (b.1555: d.1556)

4a) John of Milan (b.1558)​

10b) Stillborn Boy (c.1540)

11b) Stillborn Boy (c.1541)

12b) Catherine of Austria (b.1543: d.1555)

13b) Stillborn Girl (c.1545)

14b) Stillborn Boy (c.1546)

15b) Claudia of Austria (b.1548: d.1613) m. Charles IX of France (b.1550: d.1574) (a)

1a) Marie Elisabeth of France (b.1569)

2a) Charles X of France (b.1571)

3a) Claude of France (b.1572)

4a) Louis, Duke of Anjou (b.1574)

5a) Elisabeth of France (b.1575: d.1575)​

Very interesting, very interesting indeed.
 
An avoidance of the French wars of religion is in itself very interesting.

But yes, so we've got a more balanced stage here using Kynan's tree for the empire that Charles shall leave behind when he does finally die.

Still uncertain over the great matter and whether or not it would exist
 
An avoidance of the French wars of religion is in itself very interesting.

But yes, so we've got a more balanced stage here using Kynan's tree for the empire that Charles shall leave behind when he does finally die.

Still uncertain over the great matter and whether or not it would exist

It most likely would. Henry VIII cannot, psychologically, leave nothing but a female heir to the English Throne. I can see similar actions taken OTL, with maybe different choices after Anne Boleyn.
 
It most likely would. Henry VIII cannot, psychologically, leave nothing but a female heir to the English Throne. I can see similar actions taken OTL, with maybe different choices after Anne Boleyn.

Oh what makes you say that?
 
Oh what makes you say that?

Look at his actions OTL. He tied his masculinity to the idea he was a virile, strong man with all the qualities his father lacked to be a truly great King like Henry V had been. But if he cannot complete the basic function of producing a male heir I cannot see him being very happy. His father, despite being in his eyes much lesser than himself, had 3 (or 4 if you believe that there was also a Prince Edward born circa 1487/1488) sons, two of which survived into the renaissance adulthood (yes Arthur died at 15 but he still survived long enough to marry). If all Henry VIII can achieve is a string of dead children and a daughter or two, he isn't going to feel very good and after having his ego stroked and being told how amazing he is, that's gotta hurt more than it neceessarily should.
 
Look at his actions OTL. He tied his masculinity to the idea he was a virile, strong man with all the qualities his father lacked to be a truly great King like Henry V had been. But if he cannot complete the basic function of producing a male heir I cannot see him being very happy. His father, despite being in his eyes much lesser than himself, had 3 (or 4 if you believe that there was also a Prince Edward born circa 1487/1488) sons, two of which survived into the renaissance adulthood (yes Arthur died at 15 but he still survived long enough to marry). If all Henry VIII can achieve is a string of dead children and a daughter or two, he isn't going to feel very good and after having his ego stroked and being told how amazing he is, that's gotta hurt more than it neceessarily should.

True enough, though one could argue that there was also some issues with his wives as well no? Catherine didn't help by fasting herself into obscurity. But yeah I can see what you'r saying.
 
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