Alternate machineguns?

The Maxim was the first successful type, but I wondered if it was possible for there to be earlier, or different, approaches.

I'm excluding the Gatling, as externally powered.

What I have in mind is something like the Webley-Fosbery action combined with a Colt rifle (or an early Aden). Is that practical?

Yes, I know, black powder is a drawback; for sake of discussion, ignore the problems.;) Although, it crosses my mind, if somebody has invented a rifle-caliber *Aden, there might be impetus to improve the powder to overcome fouling...

Any thoughts?
 
Last edited:
John Browning got the idea that led to the Colt M 1895 Machine Gun from watching muzzle blast from testing some of his early rifles disturb the grass while shooting prone, and wondering if he could recupe the " wasted energy " to cycle a firearm. Using a swinging pivoting lever under the barrel connected to a muzzle deflection device.

In the early 1900's a Danish engineer named Bang ( :D you can't make that up. :p ) also tried to harness the muzzle blast from a rifle to produce a self loading cycle. Using a cup shaped muzzle device attached to an annular operating rod surrounding the barrel ( primitive Gas piston operating system. )

I see no reason some one could not have developed this into a workable system from 1870's
Onwards.
 
100Fathoms said:
John Browning got the idea that led to the Colt M 1895 Machine Gun from watching muzzle blast from testing some of his early rifles disturb the grass while shooting prone, and wondering if he could recupe the " wasted energy " to cycle a firearm. Using a swinging pivoting lever under the barrel connected to a muzzle deflection device.
Leading to the "potato digger", a kind of full-auto lever action.;) An interesting approach. (One wishes the lever had been, say, on top.:))
100Fathoms said:
a Danish engineer named Bang ( :D you can't make that up. :p )
Makes you wish it'd been successful, don't it?;)
100Fathoms said:
also tried to harness the muzzle blast from a rifle to produce a self loading cycle. Using a cup shaped muzzle device attached to an annular operating rod surrounding the barrel ( primitive Gas piston operating system. )

I see no reason some one could not have developed this into a workable system from 1870's Onwards.
Works for me.:cool:

I understood the Webley-Fosbery was recoil-operated (like the Maxim). Do you see any manufacturing hurdles? I'd imagine the cylinder cutouts to make it work could be a bit challenging to machine...
 

Driftless

Donor
Bang system was "pull" instead of the much more common "push" for gas operated systems.

It's a little surprising that someone didn't combine waste-gas to operate a gatling type system. Not enough energy, or too much fouling from black powder for that to work?
 
Could something like the Thomson 'Tommy-Gun' of Al Capone fame be made with a spring device to rotate the round magazine? I figure without the added technology of the recoil push drive it could be made with technology already available during the American Civil War. I recall a steampunk RPG setting where the Pinkerton's used a special Colt Peacemaker fitted with a spring mechanism that enabled them to fire all seven (yes, seven... Apparently they were using the early model) shots in their drum in one continuous stream of bullets. Although I wonder if this would be as fast as a professional gunslinger slapping back the cock with his left hand Hollywood style.
 

Driftless

Donor
Could something like the Thomson 'Tommy-Gun' of Al Capone fame be made with a spring device to rotate the round magazine? I figure without the added technology of the recoil push drive it could be made with technology already available during the American Civil War. I recall a steampunk RPG setting where the Pinkerton's used a special Colt Peacemaker fitted with a spring mechanism that enabled them to fire all seven (yes, seven... Apparently they were using the early model) shots in their drum in one continuous stream of bullets. Although I wonder if this would be as fast as a professional gunslinger slapping back the cock with his left hand Hollywood style.

Or a spring driven variation on the Lewis Gun? Attach the ammo tray and wind up the main spring and the spring drives the firing cycle, rather than a waste-gas piston system.
 
Without smokeless powder you are limited to recoil or externally powered multi barrelled machine guns. Deposits of combustion will coat the barrel and rapid fire will cement these in place with the repeated heat. Gas operation cannot work when the gas tube is coked up. you would get heavy machine guns with multi man crews with replaceable barrels. The crews can clean out the old barrels for immediate reuse whilst the others continue with the new ones. Multi barrel machine guns get around this by spreading the fouling across several barrels.

Nevertheless. Your POD has to be when primed cases arrive. This is the only successful way to operate a machine gun. Not necessarily brass nor yet drawn cases. Wrapped brass cases worked in Gatlings and the Chassepot paper fabricated cartridge works when well factory made, but you have to have the primer cap to make each round self contained. Machine guns have been around since the 1540's in various dubious forms but it was the invention of the self contained round that made it possible.

A black powder Maxim will choke itself useless on a full belt just on barrel fouling and the recoil mechanism is likely to be coated in combustion residue upon ejection. Myself I would look to a better Gatling or Nordenfeldt crew operated. Getting that down to a tactically mobile light machine gun would be hard work. The trick is not in making bits that will go backwards and forwards but in getting them to keep on doing it.

Just maybe some sort of water injection into the barrel to keep the fouling soft enough to be driven out by following bullets?
 
yulzari said:
Without smokeless powder you are limited to recoil or externally powered multi barrelled machine guns. Deposits of combustion will coat the barrel and rapid fire will cement these in place with the repeated heat. Gas operation cannot work when the gas tube is coked up. you would get heavy machine guns with multi man crews with replaceable barrels. The crews can clean out the old barrels for immediate reuse whilst the others continue with the new ones. Multi barrel machine guns get around this by spreading the fouling across several barrels.

Nevertheless. Your POD has to be when primed cases arrive. This is the only successful way to operate a machine gun. Not necessarily brass nor yet drawn cases. Wrapped brass cases worked in Gatlings and the Chassepot paper fabricated cartridge works when well factory made, but you have to have the primer cap to make each round self contained. Machine guns have been around since the 1540's in various dubious forms but it was the invention of the self contained round that made it possible.

A black powder Maxim will choke itself useless on a full belt just on barrel fouling and the recoil mechanism is likely to be coated in combustion residue upon ejection. Myself I would look to a better Gatling or Nordenfeldt crew operated. Getting that down to a tactically mobile light machine gun would be hard work. The trick is not in making bits that will go backwards and forwards but in getting them to keep on doing it.
I tend to agree. Fouling the barrel is problematic enough with BP; any gas system is going to be choked down to inoperability in no time. (It's bad enough with nitro powders in some systems.) More than that, IMO, it requires a design sophistication I'm not sure is credible. (Is it also impossible to machine the really small passages you'd need?)
yulzari said:
Just maybe some sort of water injection into the barrel to keep the fouling soft enough to be driven out by following bullets?
I'd say air injection, if you're going to do it; adding water seems to be begging for rusting up.:eek: IMO, tho, if this is actually introduced as a BP weapon, better powder chemistry is going to get tried, & will be found to be the best (if not only) way.

As I think of the *Aden, tho, I'm wondering if there are issues with ammo feeding... Does this design require belt feed, or can a box mag work? That might get adapted to bolt & lever rifles...
 
Top