Alternate History: Fascist Amerika

ITTL Giuseppe Zangara mortally wounds FDR in the assassination attempt. FDR is pronounced dead hours later on February 15, 1933. I know this TL has been covered by many (including Philip K. Dick's The Man in the High Castle) but this is MY take on the scenario

Part 1: Coup d'état

The VP, John Garner is eventually inaugurated as the president. He takes the same stance as Hoover on the economy, which does not help and only spirals the nation further into economic despair. His first 100 days are marked by one crisis after another, including the final collapse of the American banking system (prevented in part by a bank holiday by FDR). This greatly increases the popularity of extremist organizations on both the right and left. The Communist Party of America has particular appeal with the distraught farmers and The Silver Legion of America has the appeal of many city-dwellers. It is also backed by industrialists such as Henry Ford. The Fascist SLA promises to restore the economy back to its former state and bring America into a golden age of prosperity. It blames primarily the European Powers for "dragging us into World War 1 and crippling our economy by forcing to baby them". It also blames Blacks and immigrants "for stealing our jobs and crippling our economy". The Communist Party never gains real support as it is seen by many as "anarchists destroying world order". Popularity of Fascist movements skyrocket as even the most democratic Americans lose faith in the in an increasingly ineffective government. Hitler follows these developments in America with great interest.

In September of 1934 unemployment reaches a high of 35% and the country is on the verge of civil war. However the Fascists are impatient in working with the government. A coup is planned on October 1st. This would be known as the "Fascist March On Washington". 250,000 World War 1 veterans and Fascist supporters march to the White House demanding the resignation of John Garner and the installment of a Fascist government. Garner remains defiant and gives the stunning order "Suppress this hateful movement!" but the Army defies the orders and instead large amounts of men and Generals defect and back the marchers. Among them are General Douglas MacArthur and Major George Patton who lament on the bloody suppression of the Bonus Army a year earlier. With the backing of the Army Washington descends into chaos. In what would be known as the "Black Revolution" the current government is overthrown and John Garner is tried and executed on charges of incompetence. The Fascists soon dissolve the constitution in a highly controversial move. But they justify it as saying that "it lead us to this state". A new constitution and bill of rights is passed with a puppet congress and limited rights for citizens to obtain popular support. "Elections" are also restored, but are rigged and allow for only government-approved candidates to hold office. Blacks are reduced to serfdom on the accusation of that they were "depriving Americans of jobs and acting as parasites for the economy". Economic policies based off of Nazi Germany (already experiencing great economic recovery) are implemented through massive public works and military and naval rearmament. The Washington Naval Conference is dissolved in November, further worrying the British Empire.

Part 2: Ascendancy

After a series of power struggles and riots, a military dictatorship under Douglas MacArthur is formed along with the Silver Legion of America as the ruling party. Democratic countries throughout the globe are shocked and denounce the events. A politician notes that "Another beacon of light and freedom is extinguished". On the contrary Hitler and Mussolini praise the move. Hitler reportedly quotes that "America has freed itself from the Jewish Conspiracy. They shall make great allies for the Reich".

The Fascists in America soon split on foreign policy. Many want to remain staunchly isolationist. Others want to approach the regimes of Hitler and Mussolini and become allies. Most however are in between. Germany and America share a very similar ideology, but there are very staunch differences. By far the biggest impediment to a full scale alliance is Hitler's admiration of the British Empire and pursuits of an Anglo-German alliance. On the contrary America denounces the Empire as a vestige of an old order that is meant to be destroyed. America wants to expand not for Lebensraum but for "protecting the peoples of the Americas from imperialists" citing the long standing Monroe Doctrine. It also wants to expand for economic opportunities on a perversion of Manifest Destiny, that it was a god-given right for the United States to take over all of the Americas. American Fascism more resembles Italian or Japanese Fascism than Nazism. Many American Fascists view the far right Regimes such as Nazi Germany as impure and not true Fascists.

Fascist America is not without internal opposition. Many Americans denounce the violent takeover and the execution and exile of its opposition. However many Americans are either too consumed by the Great Depression to care or are afraid to oppose the Regime. Active opponents are thrown into "reeducation camps" along with newly enslaved Blacks and minorities. The public knows little about these labor camps. In addition, the following years see rapid economic and military expansion and a massive success in reviving the economy (much faster IOTL). One American notes that "Once the Fascists were in power it was wonderful. People were put back to work and there were no more poor people). Unemployment drops from 35% in 1933 to 5% by 1936, and Wall Street is once again a bustling financial center. Any remaining opposition to the Regime is silenced by the great economic prosperity associated with it.

America in the international stage is "neutral" and turns a blind eye to Japanese and German expansion. America conducts free trade with all powers and never embargoes the Axis, this has far-reaching effects on Japanese Conquest of china. In 1936 Hitler, giving up on a Anglo-German alliance, invites MacArthur and American diplomats over to see the Reich and talk of an American-German Axis. No alliance is created, but the "Treaty of Non-Aggression and Mutual Assistance" is announced and signed. This also included unrestricted trade with all Axis powers and Joint German-American research in many fields of science. In secret Hitler and MacArthur agree to partition the British and French Empires.

Unrelated to this TL The Hindenburg disaster never happens, why? Because the Hindenburg is filled with fire-retardant helium (the US never enacts a helium embargo on Germany) and the Hindenburg lands safely in New York despite fuel leaks and damage. Observers noted that "had the Hindenburg been filled with Hydrogen it would have burst into a enormous fireball".

America is Fascist and greatly Axis-Leaning, but they are still reluctant to get pulled into any sort of war. However the resources of the US are flowing uninterrupted into the hands of the Axis Powers. Events in Europe happen much like IOTL, with Hitler emboldened even more thanks to his belief that America will join in the inevitable war. Will the Axis prevail? Will America stick to its isolationist guns, or will it side with the Axis in a crusade against Communism and the Allies? All feedback appreciated and note that this timeline is speculative, but that IMHO FDR dead would have resulted in a Fascist America.
 
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So the Franco-British are basically alone ?

Could have two consequence :

-Seeing that if they wait longer they will be destroyed so attack the german during the rhineland crisis
-Or they decide that if they could into a war they will be destroyed thus abandon Poland to gain one more year or even two .
 
Given this, Option 1 and an Alliance with Mussolini as a co-Imperialist.

Canada looks uneasy and either gets massively boosted or goes very neutral/Finlandized.
 
How in the name of all that is good and holy does taking over Washington lead to 48 states scattered throughout the Union all going along with this, in a nation where the most conservative regions praise federalism, and the most pro-Federal segments of the population would violently oppose a Fascist state? What, is DC going to call up all 100,000 members of the useless American army to pacify the whole country, including millions of people being openly denigrated as enemies of the state who see the writing on the wall, all of whom have easy access to firearms?

Why is Douglas MacArthur, a man who praised the ACLU and gave a constitution to Japan which gave more rights to women than the US constitution, suddenly a ravenous racist, Fascist dictator?

Why is it even called 'Fascism'? It was mostly an Italian term. Hitler didn't call himself a Fascist, nor did Franco, or Tojo. So why does America do it? Considering that most support for this movement would presumably come from WASPs, why would they emulate an Italian anyway?

Why has America given Japan a blank check? What about the Philippines? What about America's own interests in the Pacific? America's national interests don't change because democracy dies. In fact, if they are a racial nationalist state they have even more reason to hate Japan.

How can America know little about an entire tenth of the population going to Labour camps? And that's just the blacks. (Why are they even bothering round them up anyway? Jim Crow's already doing a fine job keeping them down in the South, which was like 90% of the black population.) Once we include Jews, Asians, Mexicans, and probably some Latin Europeans, possibly Irish and Italians, that figure is easily reaching a fifth of the whole population being targeted on a racial basis. Then you add the religious minorities, the liberals, the Communists, and very quickly you lose anything you have. Remember, by the thirties, WASPS were a minority. Only around 1-2% of Germany was Jewish, which made them easy to oppress without incident. You can't declare war on a fifth of the population, many of whom would have friends outside that their racial group.

This is the main reason an avowedly WASP Supremacist 'Fascist' America is not going to happen with such a late POD. The demographics are simply too stacked against the WASPS and they have too little friends among the Irish/Italian/Jewish/Polish communities since they saw the WASPs as keeping them out of power. So you won't find support for a WASP dictator in America, and WASPs will not support a Catholic/Jewish leader, let alone dictator. This isn't even counting on American's natural aversion to dictatorship, state control and abolished civil liberty.
 
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How in the name of all that is good and holy does taking over Washington lead to 48 states scattered throughout the Union all going along with this, in a nation where the most conservative regions praise federalism, and the most pro-Federal segments of the population would violently oppose a Fascist state? What, is DC going to call up all 100,000 members of the useless American army to pacify the whole country, including millions of people being openly denigrated as enemies of the state who see the writing on the wall, all of whom have easy access to firearms?

Why is Douglas MacArthur, a man who praised the ACLU and gave a constitution to Japan which gave more rights to women than the US constitution, suddenly a ravenous racist, Fascist dictator?

Why is it even called 'Fascism'? It was mostly an Italian term. Hitler didn't call himself a Fascist, nor did Franco, or Tojo. So why does America do it? Considering that most support for this movement would presumably come from WASPs, why would they emulate an Italian anyway?

Why has America given Japan a blank check? What about the Philippines? What about America's own interests in the Pacific? America's national interests don't change because democracy dies. In fact, if they are a racial nationalist state they have even more reason to hate Japan.

How can America know little about an entire tenth of the population going to Labour camps? And that's just the blacks. (Why are they even bothering round them up anyway? Jim Crow's already doing a fine job keeping them down in the South, which was like 90% of the black population.) Once we include Jews, Asians, Mexicans, and probably some Latin Europeans, possibly Irish and Italians, that figure is easily reaching a fifth of the whole population being targeted on a racial basis. Then you add the religious minorities, the liberals, the Communists, and very quickly you lose anything you have. Remember, by the thirties, WASPS were a minority. Only around 1-2% of Germany was Jewish, which made them easy to oppress without incident. You can't declare war on a fifth of the population, many of whom would have friends outside that their racial group.

This is the main reason an avowedly WASP Supremacist 'Fascist' America is not going to happen with such a late POD. The demographics are simply too stacked against the WASPS and they have too little friends among the Irish/Italian/Jewish/Polish communities since they saw the WASPs as keeping them out of power. So you won't find support for a WASP dictator in America, and WASPs will not support a Catholic/Jewish leader, let alone dictator. This isn't even counting on American's natural aversion to dictatorship, state control and abolished civil liberty.

1. "Fascism" is a relative term I use to describe the ideology this dark america has. You do make great points but here are some reasons. The "Fascists" had the backing of large portions of the Armed Forces, any rebellions would have been quickly suppressed. In addition, this America is in FAR greater economic crisis than IOTL, and on the verge of Civil War. Many looked towards the Fascists for stability, peace, and prosperity. As FDR once said, "People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made". The "Greater Depression" made many lose faith in the government, and many more Americans were ambivalent. It is a military government operating by "Fascism". Douglas MacArthur is the "president", but in reality he is just a puppet of Corporate America and the Army. To give American Nationalists a strong figure to rally to. Not all of the population was targeted, just primarily Blacks, who were reduced to serfdom. The SLA argues that Jim Crow was not doing enough and put the blame on them. The WASPs make up FAR more people than IOTL, as the Greater Depression and the increase in Communist popularity caused their ideology to skyrocket.

2. The States stay for a number of reasons. The Army and large portions of the population support the Fascist Government. They also believe that secession would only compound the situation and make it worse (the civil war established that statehood is eternal, remember? However, many territories including Puerto Rico and Hawaii declared independence, they were reclaimed however in a matter of months. The Philippines also cut the strings, but the new government is too occupied to care. Retaking the Philippines would mean a costly war, along with dealing with a huge resistance movement (The government is dealing with militias opposing the government scattered throughout the country initially). To sway the public, the new constitution has a puppet congress and guarantees some rights (that are completely denied to blacks). Also the Government does not sanction official segregation of immigrants, it was de facto.

3. America may be a Ultranationalist semi-dictatorship, but that does not mean it is still not isolationist. Due to similiar ideology between the nations and the lack of any real threat to American territories, the government and the people turn a blind eye. America doesnt give Japan a blank check, but it conducts free trade which has drastic implications on the Chinese front. Events in the world however will shake Ultranationalist America out of its bubble for a second time.
 
Part 3
America and Germany officially become allies:
Part 3: The Giant Wakes
Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo have all expanded their nations much like IOTL. The world is shocked when on August 23, 1939 the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was announced. This particularly causes tensions between the Axis and Axis leaning powers themselves. The US, reapproaching with Hitler for the past couple of years immediately ceases talks with Germany for entry into the Axis powers as a sign of protest. This however does not result in the termination of the TNAMA between the two powers.
On September 1st, World War 2 officially begins with the German Invasion of Poland. Britain and France are more reluctant to honor their guarantee with Poland due to fear that the US may join as an Axis Power, but they correctly assume that the MRP has driven a wedge between the two nations and declare war on Germany anyway. The US declares "neutrality" but is secretly planning to join the war. MacArthur and the US are unsure that Germany could even win due to the strategic advantage the Allies have, and along with the MRP this results in the "neutrality" of America.

However things swing in favor of the Axis when Denmark, Norway, France, and the BeNeLux fall in rapid succession, leaving Britain to fight alone. WC becomes PM like IOTL and continues the war. The axis triumph in Europe has quickly changed the mind of the American Nationalists. They believe remaining neutral would be declining a "golden opportunity" to declare war on the Allies and carve out their empires. In March, America announced a full embargo on all "belligerent Allied Nations" and a lend lease between Germany and the US. While this embargo does little harm to the British (it actually does more harm to the US), it demonstrated to the world the stance of the USA and that its involvement is imminent. War Plan Red is secretly planned with an invasion of Canada (including an assault on Halifax) along with simultaneous amphibious landings in the Bahamas and Bermuda. In late June, British morale is sunken further as American troops cross the Canadian border on multiple fronts and sucessfully overrun the Bahamas and Bermuda (only lightly defended). However, the battle of Halifax results in a disaster as the amphibious assault encounters heavy resistance and is soundly defeated. This lifts Canadian morale, but not much. As a result the Americans learn much from the landings which would later prove to be valuable later on...
On the 4th of July Hitler visits New York to announce the official Entry into the Axis in a grand ceremony and parade. The papers are finalized later in Washington D.C.

With Ultranationalist America on the side of the Germans the British position is all but hopeless, but Churchill refuses to surrender. How will the war turn out? And what will happen should the Axis prevail?
 

nbcman

Donor
I am referring to the same course of events early in the war that happened IOTL. Nothing would have changed.
Nothing? How about the loss of numerous orders of war materials IOTL the Allies placed in the US during 1939 & 1940? Or the required diversion of forces ITTL to guard against the US which means no Canadian troops in the UK or in the 2nd BEF? Or the increased naval budget impacting British and nations budgets due to the end of the WNT in 1934. Why wouldn't the UK try to bring back the alliance with Japan when the US is a threat to both nations. You are exterminating many butterflies in this time line to reach the same results in Europe.
 
1. "Fascism" is a relative term I use to describe the ideology this dark america has. You do make great points but here are some reasons. The "Fascists" had the backing of large portions of the Armed Forces, any rebellions would have been quickly suppressed. In addition, this America is in FAR greater economic crisis than IOTL, and on the verge of Civil War. Many looked towards the Fascists for stability, peace, and prosperity. As FDR once said, "People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made". The "Greater Depression" made many lose faith in the government, and many more Americans were ambivalent. It is a military government operating by "Fascism". Douglas MacArthur is the "president", but in reality he is just a puppet of Corporate America and the Army. To give American Nationalists a strong figure to rally to. Not all of the population was targeted, just primarily Blacks, who were reduced to serfdom. The SLA argues that Jim Crow was not doing enough and put the blame on them. The WASPs make up FAR more people than IOTL, as the Greater Depression and the increase in Communist popularity caused their ideology to skyrocket.

2. The States stay for a number of reasons. The Army and large portions of the population support the Fascist Government. They also believe that secession would only compound the situation and make it worse (the civil war established that statehood is eternal, remember? However, many territories including Puerto Rico and Hawaii declared independence, they were reclaimed however in a matter of months. The Philippines also cut the strings, but the new government is too occupied to care. Retaking the Philippines would mean a costly war, along with dealing with a huge resistance movement (The government is dealing with militias opposing the government scattered throughout the country initially). To sway the public, the new constitution has a puppet congress and guarantees some rights (that are completely denied to blacks). Also the Government does not sanction official segregation of immigrants, it was de facto.

3. America may be a Ultranationalist semi-dictatorship, but that does not mean it is still not isolationist. Due to similiar ideology between the nations and the lack of any real threat to American territories, the government and the people turn a blind eye. America doesnt give Japan a blank check, but it conducts free trade which has drastic implications on the Chinese front. Events in the world however will shake Ultranationalist America out of its bubble for a second time.

But you aren't calling America Fascist from the narrator's perspective, you're literally putting speech marks around it in the story.

The US army at this time is not the US army of 2017, or even 1945. The US army is almost non-existent, has almost no heavy weapons, no tanks, and terrible training. It would have no chance of pacifying an angry, restless (heavily armed) nation. This is also assuming everyone in the army is completely okay ending democracy. And yet what would barely be a match for the New York militia is somehow going to pacify a nation several thousand miles long? The population, with more than a hundred fifty years of democratic tradition is not going to suddenly accept Congress getting usurped and let the states get along with it. Why aren't the Left Wing states standing up? Do you think all the Right Wing states would be okay with this too? The Governors would know that they might literally die if they let them stand up. The Civil War established that you don't secede from a legitimate government, not a bunch of usurpers who took power with boots and fists. The idea that all the states just went along with this is insane.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you have a good understanding of Fascism is. 'Corporatism' does not mean Henry Ford and other Industrialists can pop into the White House for a sandwich and leave whenever they want. It means that the Corporations are told what to produce, and in return have their union problems dealt with. It never meant that the Corporations were telling the Fascists/Nazis what to do; quite the opposite. Corporations only go along with Fascist states when they see the alternative as Communism; if you've said that Communism never kicked off, that makes it even less likely that American corporations would go along with this. Fascist states were not run by 'puppets'; if MacArthur (who nothing about his personal life would indicate he would be at ALL happy with this) was being run by Industrialists and the army, why are they perusing bizarre ideological goals that neither of them would follow? Ford being anti-semitic does not suddenly mean he's going to be okay with reintroducing slavery. The American army is one of the least ideological on earth, and would likely actively fight having to remove large portions of their forces in service of race ideology.

"The WASPs make up FAR more people than IOTL, as the Greater Depression and the increase in Communist popularity caused their ideology to skyrocket."

What? WASP isn't an ideology. It means 'White Anglo-Saxon Protestant'; you don't have much of a say over three of those four words, and conversion was rare to say the least back in those days. How did killing FDR suddenly reverse decades of WASP decline IN ONE YEAR? If anything, since they have the means to get out of America, the population would be even LESS WASP than before the POD. Are you telling me that in one year, there was suddenly a massive influx of WASP immigrants into America, like unprecedented in the course of human history? Did Catholics just leave? Enough to suddenly make a minority of the population the strong majority of the country? There is no demographic way to make an America accepting of a WASP dictatorship in the 1930s. And they're ALREADY PUTTING THE BLACKS IN CAMPS? It took nearly a decade to start rounding up the Jews, and that was in wartime. Are you telling me that the US government decides to go after blacks, an ethnic group already so discriminated against that the Second Klan didn't care about them (they only cared about prohibition and Catholic bashing; blacks were so broken that they didn't even ask for any laws to wage against them) and TO REINTRODUCE SLAVERY, something that not even Southerners defend since they come up with the Lost Cause defence, and the US population is somehow on board with this ON DAY ONE? It took three years before it was even illegal to marry a Jew, and even that made the Germans uncomfortable. Americans were racist in that they thought Whites were inherently smarter etc, sure, but most Americans didn't support Jim Crow outside the South, and they sure as hell wouldn't support reintroducing slavery. Even the Southerners had black nannies; are they just going to go to the concentration camps too?

You also seem to think that having a similar ideology somehow makes America get along with the Fascist nations. Firstly, Fascism by its nature is about self-glorification of a nation, about how their country is better than anyone else on Earth. Fascist nations have inherently competing goals in many cases, as would be the case in Asia between America and Japan. Italy didn't get on well with Germany until it became obvious they were surpassed; Germany got along with Japan because they had no competing goals (Japan and Italy didn't like each other because the Italians feared the Japanese were undermining their colonies). If there are competing interests, America and Japan will not get along, and they will get along even worse than OTL. American Corporations want and had trade with China, since that's where their investments were and China has far more people than Japan; incidentally, the American economy would be extremely reliant on Anglo-Franco trade, and Germany was aiming for outright autarky. You can't change that overnight, and why would a Fascist nation want Free Trade anyway? It would want to be more protectionist, not less.

Germany, a nation with no democratic history, an irredentist culture, a 95%+ ethnically favourable conditions was only barely able to elect the Nazis through the Parliamentary system. And yet America, a nation with nothing BUT democratic history, no irredentist culture, Fascism and Communism being a joke even at the worst of the crisis and the most racially diverse population of any first world country on the planet can apparently let a WASP dictator get in charge, one even more blatantly brutal than the Nazis?
 
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Okay stop right there do some research please before writing Garner is not going to be Hoover but Garner would also be no Roosevelt be he would be much much more active than Hoover in combatting the depression it won't be perfect Garner, however, supported much of the new deal The question is will he move aggressively against the Supreme Court which kept blocking parts of said legislation. I would say no since he argued with FDR over his court packing schemes. Some parts of the New Deal will pass, but not as much. The result: there are so many arguments pro and con regarding the New Deal that I couldn't give a valid answer. His balanced budget style wouldn't help. Also, his anti-labor stance would seriously change the face of the modern Democrats. The economy won't be as good as it was under Roosevelt but it would recover. Also, why wouldn't Garner declare a banking holiday I don't think he would just stand there and watch the banks collapse and many banks where already being closed by the states anyway
 
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But you aren't calling America Fascist from the narrator's perspective, you're literally putting speech marks around it in the story.

The US army at this time is not the US army of 2017, or even 1945. The US army is almost non-existent, has almost no heavy weapons, no tanks, and terrible training. It would have no chance of pacifying an angry, restless (heavily armed) nation. This is also assuming everyone in the army is completely okay ending democracy. And yet what would barely be a match for the New York militia is somehow going to pacify a nation several thousand miles long? The population, with more than a hundred fifty years of democratic tradition is not going to suddenly accept Congress getting usurped and let the states get along with it. Why aren't the Left Wing states standing up? Do you think all the Right Wing states would be okay with this too? The Governors would know that they might literally die if they let them stand up. The Civil War established that you don't secede from a legitimate government, not a bunch of usurpers who took power with boots and fists. The idea that all the states just went along with this is insane.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you have a good understanding of Fascism is. 'Corporatism' does not mean Henry Ford and other Industrialists can pop into the White House for a sandwich and leave whenever they want. It means that the Corporations are told what to produce, and in return have their union problems dealt with. It never meant that the Corporations were telling the Fascists/Nazis what to do; quite the opposite. Corporations only go along with Fascist states when they see the alternative as Communism; if you've said that Communism never kicked off, that makes it even less likely that American corporations would go along with this. Fascist states were not run by 'puppets'; if MacArthur (who nothing about his personal life would indicate he would be at ALL happy with this) was being run by Industrialists and the army, why are they perusing bizarre ideological goals that neither of them would follow? Ford being anti-semitic does not suddenly mean he's going to be okay with reintroducing slavery. The American army is one of the least ideological on earth, and would likely actively fight having to remove large portions of their forces in service of race ideology.

"The WASPs make up FAR more people than IOTL, as the Greater Depression and the increase in Communist popularity caused their ideology to skyrocket."

What? WASP isn't an ideology. It means 'White Anglo-Saxon Protestant'; you don't have much of a say over three of those four words, and conversion was rare to say the least back in those days. How did killing FDR suddenly reverse decades of WASP decline IN ONE YEAR? If anything, since they have the means to get out of America, the population would be even LESS WASP than before the POD. Are you telling me that in one year, there was suddenly a massive influx of WASP immigrants into America, like unprecedented in the course of human history? Did Catholics just leave? Enough to suddenly make a minority of the population the strong majority of the country? There is no demographic way to make an America accepting of a WASP dictatorship in the 1930s. And they're ALREADY PUTTING THE BLACKS IN CAMPS? It took nearly a decade to start rounding up the Jews, and that was in wartime. Are you telling me that the US government decides to go after blacks, an ethnic group already so discriminated against that the Second Klan didn't care about them (they only cared about prohibition and Catholic bashing; blacks were so broken that they didn't even ask for any laws to wage against them) and TO REINTRODUCE SLAVERY, something that not even Southerners defend since they come up with the Lost Cause defence, and the US population is somehow on board with this ON DAY ONE? It took three years before it was even illegal to marry a Jew, and even that made the Germans uncomfortable. Americans were racist in that they thought Whites were inherently smarter etc, sure, but most Americans didn't support Jim Crow outside the South, and they sure as hell wouldn't support reintroducing slavery. Even the Southerners had black nannies; are they just going to go to the concentration camps too?

You also seem to think that having a similar ideology somehow makes America get along with the Fascist nations. Firstly, Fascism by its nature is about self-glorification of a nation, about how their country is better than anyone else on Earth. Fascist nations have inherently competing goals in many cases, as would be the case in Asia between America and Japan. Italy didn't get on well with Germany until it became obvious they were surpassed; Germany got along with Japan because they had no competing goals (Japan and Italy didn't like each other because the Italians feared the Japanese were undermining their colonies). If there are competing interests, America and Japan will not get along, and they will get along even worse than OTL. American Corporations want and had trade with China, since that's where their investments were and China has far more people than Japan; incidentally, the American economy would be extremely reliant on Anglo-Franco trade, and Germany was aiming for outright autarky. You can't change that overnight, and why would a Fascist nation want Free Trade anyway? It would want to be more protectionist, not less.

Germany, a nation with no democratic history, an irredentist culture, a 95%+ ethnically favourable conditions was only barely able to elect the Nazis through the Parliamentary system. And yet America, a nation with nothing BUT democratic history, no irredentist culture, Fascism and Communism being a joke even at the worst of the crisis and the most racially diverse population of any first world country on the planet can apparently let a WASP dictator get in charge, one even more blatantly brutal than the Nazis?
America has a history of expansion through the idea of Manifest Destiny, often at the cost of their neighbors. The Fascist government twists this idea to support the expansion of America. It argues that America was destined to rule over all of the Americas to "protect them from the imperialists". The Nationalists argue that aggressive expansion will solve America's economic issues. It rallies the public against the British, which initially puts America at great odds against the Nazis (Hitler pursued a Anglo-German alliance). As Hitler gave up on the idea after failed negotiations, he began courting America (which is run by the SLA NOT the WASP). America pursued friendly relations due to strong business ties (industrialists such as Ford conducted business with Hitler) out of sheer convenience and common enemies. As for the camps, the true nature is a government secret and it was done slowly, with initial laws extending Jim Crow even further. Americans wouldn't object because they would never know about them. America enters World War 2 on the Axis side primarily due to having the same enemies.

The US army is ill prepared at first(as evident by the overconfidence and the failed assault on Halifax) but the navy is very strong due to the massive naval rearmament performed, making the USN a force to be reckoned with. The Bahamas and Bermuda fall relatively quickly as those islands were lightly defended. However the treaty with Germany allowed for joint military research and cooperation. The lack of true experience in modern warfare will backfire on the Americans.
 
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was there a story where Germany built there own wall on the French border and helping Norway free from the allies in ww2 cant remember the name
 
America has a history of expansion through the idea of Manifest Destiny, often at the cost of their neighbors. The Fascist government twists this idea to support the expansion of America. It argues that America was destined to rule over all of the Americas to "protect them from the imperialists". The Nationalists argue that aggressive expansion will solve America's economic issues. It rallies the public against the British, which initially puts America at great odds against the Nazis (Hitler pursued a Anglo-German alliance). As Hitler gave up on the idea after failed negotiations, he began courting America (which is run by the SLA NOT the WASP). America pursued friendly relations due to strong business ties (industrialists such as Ford conducted business with Hitler) out of sheer convenience and common enemies. As for the camps, the true nature is a government secret and it was done slowly, with initial laws extending Jim Crow even further. Americans wouldn't object because they would never know about them. America enters World War 2 on the Axis side primarily due to having the same enemies.

You can't put blacks in camps because you take away the South's (and to some degree other parts of the country) workforce. Some Southern industrialists and other leaders even wanted more blacks since it meant more people to labour under them (and thus less blacks leaving the South). These are the powerful elites who would definitely object to that.
 
America has a history of expansion through the idea of Manifest Destiny, often at the cost of their neighbors. The Fascist government twists this idea to support the expansion of America. It argues that America was destined to rule over all of the Americas to "protect them from the imperialists". The Nationalists argue that aggressive expansion will solve America's economic issues. It rallies the public against the British, which initially puts America at great odds against the Nazis (Hitler pursued a Anglo-German alliance). As Hitler gave up on the idea after failed negotiations, he began courting America (which is run by the SLA NOT the WASP). America pursued friendly relations due to strong business ties (industrialists such as Ford conducted business with Hitler) out of sheer convenience and common enemies. As for the camps, the true nature is a government secret and it was done slowly, with initial laws extending Jim Crow even further. Americans wouldn't object because they would never know about them. America enters World War 2 on the Axis side primarily due to having the same enemies.

The US army is ill prepared at first(as evident by the overconfidence and the failed assault on Halifax) but the navy is very strong due to the massive naval rearmament performed, making the USN a force to be reckoned with. The Bahamas and Bermuda fall relatively quickly as those islands were lightly defended. However the treaty with Germany allowed for joint military research and cooperation. The lack of true experience in modern warfare will backfire on the Americans.

I'm sorry, but you aren't answering any of my criticisms.

The same people behind the concept of Manifest Destiny were often not the same people behind isolationism. Wait, so now America wants to rule over the whole of the Americas? What logistics? What appetite? What support? There will be almost zero support for American occupation south of the Rio Grande, and north of the Rio Grande, people are not remotely interested in dying so that Nicaraguans and Chileans are under an American boot. So who wants to invade the South? Why would an isolationist society support a war that would dwarf WW1 especially after such economic turmoil? No one would want a war with Britain and France; you need only look at polls in 1939 to see that less than 5% of America were sympathetic to a pre-Holocaust Germany. Americans were the absolute last people to support foreign wars; they only annexed territory from Spain because they thought Spain got them first. They won't support an exploitative invasion of the whole of the Americas; its the equivelant of the Quakers holding a meeting and deciding they'll suddenly become a warlike religion. Germany was fighting for German majority territory, something most people in Germany felt was a fair fight, and even then they weren't so stupid to declare preemptive war on Britain and France. Japan was already under crippling embargo from America so people saw a reason in doing it. This is BRITAIN. A COUNTRY THAT AMERICANS HAVE LIVING MEMORY OF FIGHTING ALONGSIDE. It is a country with a huge economic/cultural clout worldwide, as opposed to Germany which had almost no economic clout and cultural footprint in the Nazi era. It's utterly out of character for America, and NO GOVERNMENT could POSSIBLY survive if it thought to do this. How? Convince them that they'll get South American wealth? I thought everyone was already happy with how the Fascists were running the economy? And do you really think Americans would be comfortable backing a war for such a blatantly greedy reason? Or some invented reason that Americans had to rule the whole of the two continents which had no basis in the American mythos?

"(which is run by the SLA NOT the WASP)"

Forgive me, but I've already explained to you something yet you've repeated the same mistake. WASP is not a secret organisation, an international conspiracy, or political party. It is the most influential demographic group in America and is basically a requirement to be President. The SLA are either run by WASPs, in which case they don't have the demographic clout to boss the country around, or they aren't WASPs, in which case they'll never be accepted into power. You need the support of WASPs to be the leaders of America, and that is where the Conservative base of America is. Any Fascist group in America would mostly be Italian, instantly knee-capping any chance of a President if that were the case, or it appeals to WASPs, in which case there isn't enough to lead the country, let alone encounter no opposition. The demographics to have most of the country feel comfortable with a WASP Presidency don't exist, and since inter-white unity wasn't a thing in America until after WW2, there won't be a Fascist President 'uniting' the White racial groups, especially if he's going after Jews.

Nazi Germany barely held power when they had almost the entire country on their side demographically; how in the name of God is White Supremacist America going to work if it's got 20% (Jews/Blacks/mixed-race/gypsy/Mexican/Asian/Russians) of the population marked as outright enemies and another 40% (Irish/Italians/Poles/Greeks/Spanish/recent French/recent British) as likely enemies based just on race alone? This is again assuming that all WASPs are going to accept the government, which they absolutely will not. So let's be kind and say that three quarters of WASPs all decide Fascism is the way to go. That leaves you with at best 30% of the population feeling comfortable with what's happening. This absolutely is not enough to sustain a government, let alone put in charge, let alone WITHOUT OPPOSITION.

"America pursued friendly relations due to strong business ties (industrialists such as Ford conducted business with Hitler)"

AND MANY MORE BUSINESSMEN HAD MANY MORE CONNECTIONS TO BRITAIN. Nazi Germany was a near non-entity in finance and the world market; it wasn't trying to be one. Britain and France have a huge amount of territory and GDP, vast natural resources, and much more instinctive connection to Americans in the post WW1 world. The idea that America had more to gain by shackling itself to Hitler is absurd.

"As for the camps, the true nature is a government secret and it was done slowly, with initial laws extending Jim Crow even further. Americans wouldn't object because they would never know about them."

Again, why? If the Second KKK did not care about instituting new anti-black laws, why do Industrialists (people who complained the most about Jim Crow who weren't black) and the army (one of the least ideological institutes in America) want to start the Holocaust? This isn't 1% of the country like the Jews. You are talking 10% of the entire American population being sucked out of the economy; it would be an utter cataclysm. These aren't people with wealth on them to begin with, so you can't confiscate wealth like Germany did to Jews. It's just an insane move with no stomach for it in America. People in the 30s were more considered about Oakies taking their jobs than blacks, so where is the anti-black mood coming from? Slowly tightening Jim Crow? You realise that it took nearly ten years for Jews to reach the camps, in wartime? And Americans casually accepted the reintroduction of slavery (and you don't miss ten percent of the country, a visible minority at that, disappearing) in only a few years in peacetime?

You haven't answered my question on the army. You said that the army put down a nation of more than a hundred million people to casually accepting a state more brutal than Nazism. That is impossible for an army as ill-equipped and undermanned as America's was in the 1930s. The Italians, Irish, Blacks and everyone else in New York ALONE could beat back the 1930s American army; the idea that the 1930s army was enough to scare the governors into submission is impossible.

You aren't addressing my main points: there is no demographic base for a White Supremacist Fascist government in America that can be sustained, a coup in America is literally impossible owing to Federalism, the army is not powerful enough to put down DC let alone the whole country, there is no economic incentive to allign with Hitler over Britain and sure as hell not Japan, there is no mood in America to fight Britain/France/South America, there is no mood to go after blacks, Douglas MacArthur (an egomaniac who praised the ACLU and gave Japanese women more rights than American counterparts) is not going to be a sock-puppet to implement insane Fascist policy, Fascist governments don't have 'puppet leaders', said puppet leaders most certainly wouldn't be the Industrialists, Industrialists and the army would not be interested in perusing racial policy (and in the former's case would be outright opposed), and the most pacifistic 150 year old democracy on Earth is not going to suddenly fall in lockstep behind a Foreign ideology with no basis in America going against everything Americans were brought up to cherish (their democracy, liberties, etc).

This story with this POD is simply unworkable.
 
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I'm sorry, but you aren't answering any of my criticisms.

The same people behind the concept of Manifest Destiny were often not the same people behind isolationism. Wait, so now America wants to rule over the whole of the Americas? What logistics? What appetite? What support? There will be almost zero support for American occupation south of the Rio Grande, and north of the Rio Grande, people are not remotely interested in dying so that Nicaraguans and Chileans are under an American boot. So who wants to invade the South? Why would an isolationist society support a war that would dwarf WW1 especially after such economic turmoil? No one would want a war with Britain and France; you need only look at polls in 1939 to see that less than 5% of America were sympathetic to a pre-Holocaust Germany. Americans were the absolute last people to support foreign wars; they only annexed territory from Spain because they thought Spain got them first. They won't support an exploitative invasion of the whole of the Americas; its the equivelant of the Quakers holding a meeting and deciding they'll suddenly become a warlike religion. Germany was fighting for German majority territory, something most people in Germany felt was a fair fight, and even then they weren't so stupid to declare preemptive war on Britain and France. Japan was already under crippling embargo from America so people saw a reason in doing it. This is BRITAIN. A COUNTRY THAT AMERICANS HAVE LIVING MEMORY OF FIGHTING ALONGSIDE. It is a country with a huge economic/cultural clout worldwide, as opposed to Germany which had almost no economic clout and cultural footprint in the Nazi era. It's utterly out of character for America, and NO GOVERNMENT could POSSIBLY survive if it thought to do this. How? Convince them that they'll get South American wealth? I thought everyone was already happy with how the Fascists were running the economy? And do you really think Americans would be comfortable backing a war for such a blatantly greedy reason? Or some invented reason that Americans had to rule the whole of the two continents which had no basis in the American mythos?

"(which is run by the SLA NOT the WASP)"

Forgive me, but I've already explained to you something yet you've repeated the same mistake. WASP is not a secret organisation, an international conspiracy, or political party. It is the most influential demographic group in America and is basically a requirement to be President. The SLA are either run by WASPs, in which case they don't have the demographic clout to boss the country around, or they aren't WASPs, in which case they'll never be accepted into power. You need the support of WASPs to be the leaders of America, and that is where the Conservative base of America is. Any Fascist group in America would mostly be Italian, instantly knee-capping any chance of a President if that were the case, or it appeals to WASPs, in which case there isn't enough to lead the country, let alone encounter no opposition. The demographics to have most of the country feel comfortable with a WASP Presidency don't exist, and since inter-white unity wasn't a thing in America until after WW2, there won't be a Fascist President 'uniting' the White racial groups, especially if he's going after Jews.

Nazi Germany barely held power when they had almost the entire country on their side demographically; how in the name of God is White Supremacist America going to work if it's got 20% (Jews/Blacks/mixed-race/gypsy/Mexican/Asian/Russians) of the population marked as outright enemies and another 40% (Irish/Italians/Poles/Greeks/Spanish/recent French/recent British) as likely enemies based just on race alone? This is again assuming that all WASPs are going to accept the government, which they absolutely will not. So let's be kind and say that three quarters of WASPs all decide Fascism is the way to go. That leaves you with at best 30% of the population feeling comfortable with what's happening. This absolutely is not enough to sustain a government, let alone put in charge, let alone WITHOUT OPPOSITION.

"America pursued friendly relations due to strong business ties (industrialists such as Ford conducted business with Hitler)"

AND MANY MORE BUSINESSMEN HAD MANY MORE CONNECTIONS TO BRITAIN. Nazi Germany was a near non-entity in finance and the world market; it wasn't trying to be one. Britain and France have a huge amount of territory and GDP, vast natural resources, and much more instinctive connection to Americans in the post WW1 world. The idea that America had more to gain by shackling itself to Hitler is absurd.

"As for the camps, the true nature is a government secret and it was done slowly, with initial laws extending Jim Crow even further. Americans wouldn't object because they would never know about them."

Again, why? If the Second KKK did not care about instituting new anti-black laws, why do Industrialists (people who complained the most about Jim Crow who weren't black) and the army (one of the least ideological institutes in America) want to start the Holocaust? This isn't 1% of the country like the Jews. You are talking 10% of the entire American population being sucked out of the economy; it would be an utter cataclysm. These aren't people with wealth on them to begin with, so you can't confiscate wealth like Germany did to Jews. It's just an insane move with no stomach for it in America. People in the 30s were more considered about Oakies taking their jobs than blacks, so where is the anti-black mood coming from? Slowly tightening Jim Crow? You realise that it took nearly ten years for Jews to reach the camps, in wartime? And Americans casually accepted the reintroduction of slavery (and you don't miss ten percent of the country, a visible minority at that, disappearing) in only a few years in peacetime?

You haven't answered my question on the army. You said that the army put down a nation of more than a hundred million people to casually accepting a state more brutal than Nazism. That is impossible for an army as ill-equipped and undermanned as America's was in the 1930s. The Italians, Irish, Blacks and everyone else in New York ALONE could beat back the 1930s American army; the idea that the 1930s army was enough to scare the governors into submission is impossible.

You aren't addressing my main points: there is no demographic base for a White Supremacist Fascist government in America that can be sustained, a coup in America is literally impossible owing to Federalism, the army is not powerful enough to put down DC let alone the whole country, there is no economic incentive to allign with Hitler over Britain and sure as hell not Japan, there is no mood in America to fight Britain/France/South America, there is no mood to go after blacks, Douglas MacArthur (an egomaniac who praised the ACLU and gave Japanese women more rights than American counterparts) is not going to be a sock-puppet to implement insane Fascist policy, Fascist governments don't have 'puppet leaders', said puppet leaders most certainly wouldn't be the Industrialists, Industrialists and the army would not be interested in perusing racial policy (and in the former's case would be outright opposed), and the most pacifistic 150 year old democracy on Earth is not going to suddenly fall in lockstep behind a Foreign ideology with no basis in America going against everything Americans were brought up to cherish (their democracy, liberties, etc).

This story with this POD is simply unworkable.
ANY "FASCIST AMERICA" TIMELINE WILL BE SOMEWHAT FAR FETCHED! I AM SIMPLY IMAGINING THE CONSEQUENCES OF A "FASCIST" AMERICA. By the way the regime isnt that brutal (at first) and has limited bill of rights and a puppet congress. It says that those who resist or want to separate from the country are "communist traitors". Plus the country is on the verge of collapse before the coup, so yeah good luck supporting democracy when half the country is unemployed and starving (the Greater Depression). The implementation of anti-black laws and the tightening of Jim Crow is gradual. It is not to eliminate the blacks but to eventually reduce them to serfdom to make way for "real americans".
Nevertheless I am moving on from this and onto the war (the alliance with Germany is out of sheer convenience and common enemies).
 
Moving on from the PoD into potential consequences we are moving on to World War 2.

Part 4: The Great Crusade

The entry of America into the war as an Axis power is a catastrophe for the Allies. While very weak in terms of armed forces, the Americans make up for that through a powerful Navy capable of destroying the RN. In addition, American industrial output will soon far exceed the Allies. British Parliament debates an armistice, but Winston Churchill manages to convince the public and the government to fight on.
American forces outnumber the Canadian and British defense forces but are ill equipped and prepared. The US Army under Eisenhower makes strides into Canada and reach the outskirts of Ottowa. The Battle of Ottowa results in a disastrous defeat for the American forces and serve as another morale booster to the Allies. Canada enacts Defense Scheme 1 and invades the Northwest surprising the Americans. Spokane, Portland, and Seattle fall, but the advance stagnates. As American forces counterattack, a scorched earth policy is enacted leaving occupied areas in ruins. This further frustrates the Americans who realize the invasion was just essentially a large scale raid. The OKW is shocked at American incompetence, comparing them to the Italians (they too are defeated in Africa like IOTL) and offer assistance, but the US declines due to a change in leadership. Taking command of American forces is General Patton who wants to radically change the entire nature of the US Army. He completely revamps the American Army and doctrine to emulate the Blitzkrieg style-tactics that allowed the Wehrmacht to overrun France in a matter of weeks. He orders massive enlargement of armored forces and the mechanization of American infantry forces. A Spring Offensive into Canada is scheduled.

Naval battles in the Atlantic however are different for the US. After initiating a Naval blockade of Canada, the USN decimates the RN in the largest engagement in modern naval history, exceeding that of the Battle of Jutland. 3 carriers are lost by the RN, notably the HMS Ark Royale and losing many battleships. The US also suffered losses. The USS Yorktown is heavily damaged and a large number of Battleships were damaged or sunk. This engagement saw the large scale success of Aircraft Carriers and the failure of Battleships. The USN notes this and replaces battleship construction with Carriers. The Pacific Front sees several American defeats of the US as Guam, Wake Island fall to the British. However the Battle of Midway resulted in the advanced being stopped, and both fleets were severely mauled in the process. The Battle of Britain remains undecided.

On April of 1941 General Patton orders Operation Arctic Fox as the newly revamped US Army launches a massive offensive into southern Canada. The goal is to take the vital ports of Halifax and Quebec. The Army was also to advance to Winnipeg and Edmonton to sever the Canadian Pacific Railway and greatly hinder the Canadian Armies ability to redeploy troops. The newly reorganized US Army shows its improvement in tactics and in a rapid blitzkrieg Ottowa, Halifax, Winnipeg, Vancouver, and Toronto fall in a matter of weeks. Quebec falls after by June. With most of Canada's major cities under American control, all resistance collapses. Canada formally surrenders to the US on June 8th and all Canadian provinces are integrated into the United States. The US promises that following the end of the war all provinces were to become fully fledged states.

Hitler and MacArthur meet in Dresden in the summer to discuss the next course of action. With the addition of the US navy, the unnamable mammal has turned from a fantasy into a real possibility, as the USN could eliminate the RN and ensure invading forces are constantly resupplied (GUARDIANS OF THE UNNAMABLE MAMMAL PLEASE DO NOT COME DOWN AND CALL THIS SCENARIO COMPLETE ASB) MacArthur is reluctant to send massive help as he is unsure if the invasion can succeed. Wanting a quick end to the war however, MacArthur agrees and orders the US Navy to surround England and to "bring the RN to the bottom of the Ocean". In a series of fierce naval engagements the RN is eliminated as a fighting force by the fall of 1941, both Greenland and Iceland have fallen. but the weather has turned sour and the invasion has been postponed.

Can Sea Lion be executed with the backing of the powerful US navy? Or is the operation still ASB? IMHO the addition of the USN means complete Naval Superiority and allows the invading force to be perpetually resupplied.
 

nbcman

Donor
The TL left the realm of plausibility in part 1. Everything therafter has been reinforcing that lack of plausibility. As has been demonstrated in other threads, plausible and well researched TLs are not your forte. I mean, the UK is in the fight of their life in the Atlantic but they are the opponent in the ATL Battle of Midway? EDIT: how would the RN be able to sail from their nearest major port to Midway? Why does the RN feel the need to strike across the Pacific when they need to defend the home islands?
 
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ANY "FASCIST AMERICA" TIMELINE WILL BE SOMEWHAT FAR FETCHED! I AM SIMPLY IMAGINING THE CONSEQUENCES OF A "FASCIST" AMERICA. By the way the regime isnt that brutal (at first) and has limited bill of rights and a puppet congress. It says that those who resist or want to separate from the country are "communist traitors". Plus the country is on the verge of collapse before the coup, so yeah good luck supporting democracy when half the country is unemployed and starving (the Greater Depression). The implementation of anti-black laws and the tightening of Jim Crow is gradual. It is not to eliminate the blacks but to eventually reduce them to serfdom to make way for "real americans".
Nevertheless I am moving on from this and onto the war (the alliance with Germany is out of sheer convenience and common enemies).

The PoD can be as wacky as you want, but what happens afterwards should have a plausible chain of causation and effect. That isn't happening here.

P.S.: Stop shouting
 
Anything is possible with a certain POD, but from what I can see this has very little plausibility. I think with a POD before 1900 you could lead to a Fascist state.
 
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