Alternate History: European Native Americans

What if when the colonists show up to the colonies they are greeted by white men wearing furs and speaking a strange european language. Instead of these being permanent viking settlers, make these what would later become some European tribe that sailed over during the Ice Age and become a sizable population larger than the Indians in our time line. How would this affect how the Europeans treat these 'barbarians'. Unlike in our timeline the white natives do no hunt the horses to extinction, they figure out ways of iron working and are militarily equal to to the colonists. The Natives are well versed in combat, well trained since they have had numerous conflicts with the Indians. In this time line the White Indians have a disease they are immune to that is a similar to the ones the Europeans bring but the Indians and White Natives live on opposite ends of the American continent making the Indians still susceptible to the diseases. The White Natives practice an ancient form of paganism and another religion that closely mimics what early Judaism was in ancient times. How would the Europeans view these peoples? In the timeline instead of allowing Colonists to settle the White natives drive them out of where ever they settle. The white Natives number in 40,000,000 since they have advanced farming and domesticated livestock. How would the Colonist try and settle, who would win?
 
Prester John was a big thing - it was not real or realistic but the IDEA that a christian had gone east, or south, and made a kingdom, and the idea lasted centuries, even though obviously any such person could not have. The Europeans wanted to find him and welcome him into their community of nations etc

I could see a smaller version of this in effect if they get to America and find people who look like themselves, and have advanced skills, even if they speak foreign (after all Lithuanian is foreign to anyone who isn't, not to mention Finnish, Hungarian, or Basque!).

There will be some who convinced themselves that "similar to an early form of Judaism" means they are a Lost Tribe, or are really Christians in a proto-Christian state
 

Vuu

Banned
You might want to take a look at the Solutrean theory, and I'm exploring in my TL this option, though I'm kinda busy s not gonna post new part when it gets interesting very soon
 
If they came in the Ice Age they still would be vulnerable to Old World diseases, unless we go full ASB (not sure if it isn't already). Also I don't see how they would have any livestock more than OTL natives.

Anyway, if we basically got the natives as we did but they were white, they'd generally still be subjugated to the "civilized" Europeans, as they are just backwards pagans anyway. Integration would be a lot easier though, considering you wouldn't be able to tell them apart from the colonists after some intermixing.
 
If they came in the Ice Age they still would be vulnerable to Old World diseases, unless we go full ASB (not sure if it isn't already). Also I don't see how they would have any livestock more than OTL natives.

Anyway, if we basically got the natives as we did but they were white, they'd generally still be subjugated to the "civilized" Europeans, as they are just backwards pagans anyway. Integration would be a lot easier though, considering you wouldn't be able to tell them apart from the colonists after some intermixing.

In this timeline they come over after the ice age by boat , that was a typo. In this timeline the European diseases come earlier to Europe and kill more people. The Europeans basically go fishing, get washed up from Siberia or somewhere to Alaska. They sail the coast until they end up in Canada and expand from there. eventually they find their way back and bring others as well. In this timeline White Natives bring their families and the numbers expand from there. In this timeline, the Vikings come but are welcomed by the white natives and the White Natives and Vikings coexist
 
I am sure they will be given the same gentle treatment that German Lutherans, Calvinists and Catholics gave each other during the 30 years war, the same kindness that the English and the French showed each other during the 100 years war, and the same respectful multicultural tolerance that European Jews received from European Christians. It's good to be from Europe!
 
I am sure they will be given the same gentle treatment that German Lutherans, Calvinists and Catholics gave each other during the 30 years war, the same kindness that the English and the French showed each other during the 100 years war, and the same respectful multicultural tolerance that European Jews received from European Christians. It's good to be from Europe!

I would imagine that the White Natives would be unwelcoming to the new settlers.

The Leader of the White Natives Oleg, suspicious of the European settlers issues a statement to his tribesman: No helping the new comers. Anyway one who helps them farm or teaches them the language will be punished with certain death. The White Natives rally around there leaders of their tribes. In this timeline during the first settlements that are attempted, the settlements are burned down and the natives now have guns and ammunition as well as knowing how to make the gun powder after torturing european settlers into telling. In this timeline the native americans go to war with white natives, the europeans believe that this is to there advantage but the white natives unite to battle the Indians, as a result modern Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, and other North Eastern areas are not settled by Europeans and as a result the White Natives keep this section of the country for themselves away from settlers. A big similarity in this timeline is how the Indians still lose their land, but in this timeline, Andrew Jackson a president who spent years fighting Indians and white natives in his native Tennessee and North Carolina would not dare attempt the trail of tears. The cherokee in this time line are allowed to stay on reservations in the Southern United States. White Natives in this timeline keep a language that exists to this day and is spoken by millions, they are ardent American patriots, the White Native language known as "Mongo Viking" for the fact that the White Natives were believed to be from Siberia.. The language is difficult to learn since it uses Cyrillic and other characters, combines different ancient balkan languages, ancient greek, and ancient Hebrew with Old Norse, and borrows new world words from Natives that don't exist in their languages.
 
A total of 40 million white natives would mean that they are about equal to the number of American Indians in 1492. Since they have horses and iron-working (which the Indians would have too, since it would be an "adapt or die" thing) plus have immunity to European disease (which doesn't make sense since diseases evolve and all but the most isolated Indians would have the same immunity), means they'll kick the ass of every single "white non-native" who sets foot on the continent. They probably would have overwhelmed the Indians from almost every part of the Americas, or at least driven them out of North America, with more mixed societies in the Caribbean, coast of South America, and probably very mixed societies in Mesoamerica/Central America too.

There will be some who convinced themselves that "similar to an early form of Judaism" means they are a Lost Tribe, or are really Christians in a proto-Christian state

"Early form of Judaism" could mean a lot, but if it's the sort of early Judaism which the Old Testament condemns as idol worship, then I'm sure you'd have many Christians seeking to eradicate it the same way God commanded in the Old Testament.

I would imagine that the White Natives would be unwelcoming to the new settlers.

The Leader of the White Natives Oleg, suspicious of the European settlers issues a statement to his tribesman: No helping the new comers. Anyway one who helps them farm or teaches them the language will be punished with certain death. The White Natives rally around there leaders of their tribes. In this timeline during the first settlements that are attempted, the settlements are burned down and the natives now have guns and ammunition as well as knowing how to make the gun powder after torturing european settlers into telling. In this timeline the native americans go to war with white natives, the europeans believe that this is to there advantage but the white natives unite to battle the Indians, as a result modern Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, and other North Eastern areas are not settled by Europeans and as a result the White Natives keep this section of the country for themselves away from settlers. A big similarity in this timeline is how the Indians still lose their land, but in this timeline, Andrew Jackson a president who spent years fighting Indians and white natives in his native Tennessee and North Carolina would not dare attempt the trail of tears. The cherokee in this time line are allowed to stay on reservations in the Southern United States. White Natives in this timeline keep a language that exists to this day and is spoken by millions, they are ardent American patriots, the White Native language known as "Mongo Viking" for the fact that the White Natives were believed to be from Siberia.. The language is difficult to learn since it uses Cyrillic and other characters, combines different ancient balkan languages, ancient greek, and ancient Hebrew with Old Norse, and borrows new world words from Natives that don't exist in their languages.

That doesn't make sense. Why can "white non-natives" settle any part of the country to begin with if they all hate Europeans to begin with? Why do they use a medieval European alphabet and speak a garble of languages of Antiquity if they're from the Ice Age?
 
The Guanches of the Canary Islands were white. It didn't help them. 'Whiteness' also didn't help the Sami, the Nenets, or any of the other Finno-Ugric people's colonized by Russia or the Scandinavians.
 
Not all "white people" were "white" in the eyes "whites" at any point in history until today (apparently) and even then we haven't finished defining who counts as white and who doesn't. The ATL whites of the Americas would not be seen as white just like Italians in 19th and early 20th century America. Not much would change for the Spanish colonies as far as social status goes. American born Spanish were treated as second class citizens by Iberian born Spanish. Assuming no one comes through the Bering Strait, it would be harder to divide the groups, I guess. In the English colonies not much would change other than having more Natives around after losing their lands.

But the way things would have developed, I imagine, would certainly be changed. But it's hard to tell as far as I know.
 
The European settlers frustrated with the white natives offered gifts of blankets riddled with European diseases, the white Natives immune to such diseases begin to use the blankets with no failing health. The White Natives gave the Europeans gifts of fine furs. The Europeans took back the furs to Europe and the New world diseases began to wreak havoc on the European populations who became sick from New world products such as fur and imported animals brought back from the new world. The disease was named Oleg's Hello. The disease which spread from rats on the ships, the fur, and mosquitos soon wiped out much of Europe's population. Oleg's disease symptoms included:
  • abdominal pain.
  • diarrhea.
  • nausea and vomiting.
  • fever and chills.
  • extreme weakness.
  • bleeding (blood may not be able to clot)
  • shock.
  • skin turning black
  • Other effects were bleeding from ears, nose and eyes.
The Catholics thought that those who were taken by the disease were susceptible to demonic possession. The disease spread rapidly through Europe by birds, mosquitos, rats and unhygienic living quarters. Historian John Swift said "Oleg's disease from the old world took 3/4 of Europe's population and 8/10 of the population in the Middle East and Asia. The greed that blinded many in the New World became what undid much of the worlds population.
 
In this timeline they come over after the ice age by boat , that was a typo. In this timeline the European diseases come earlier to Europe and kill more people. The Europeans basically go fishing, get washed up from Siberia or somewhere to Alaska. They sail the coast until they end up in Canada and expand from there. eventually they find their way back and bring others as well. In this timeline White Natives bring their families and the numbers expand from there. In this timeline, the Vikings come but are welcomed by the white natives and the White Natives and Vikings coexist
if you want to have them be immune to European diseases, this isn't going to do it... you really gotta have sustained large scale contact, handfuls of lost sailors and Vikings won't do it.
 
if you want to have them be immune to European diseases, this isn't going to do it... you really gotta have sustained large scale contact, handfuls of lost sailors and Vikings won't do it.
if you want to have them be immune to European diseases, this isn't going to do it... you really gotta have sustained large scale contact, handfuls of lost sailors and Vikings won't do it.
In this timeline the black plague hit ancient Greece and ancient greek sailors got lost, ended up in the new world, thus showing why the languages are the way they are. Some greeks were semi literate. This is why the White Natives use a mix of greek, balkan, languages and greek and cyrillic writing systems. During this time some greeks and others from the balkans came to escape the plague. There were over all 10,000 who came. Coupled with the White Native lifestyle of living with animals just like in Europe they were more immune to old and new world diseases by the time the europeans came
 
In this timeline the black plague hit ancient Greece and ancient greek sailors got lost, ended up in the new world, thus showing why the languages are the way they are. Some greeks were semi literate. This is why the White Natives use a mix of greek, balkan, languages and greek and cyrillic writing systems. During this time some greeks and others from the balkans came to escape the plague. There were over all 10,000 who came. Coupled with the White Native lifestyle of living with animals just like in Europe they were more immune to old and new world diseases by the time the europeans came
is there more large scale contact after the Classic era? If not, then diseases that arrive in/evolve further in Europe are still going to hit the natives hard. As it stands now, it seems the most likely result is that diseases going both ways are going to hammer both continents hard...
 
Combine all of that with malaria that animals and people would bring back from the new World back to Europe the European cities were filled with death and disease. The animals that were brought back brought malaria, the rats on the ships had the black plague and malaria.
 
is there more large scale contact after the Classic era? If not, then diseases that arrive in/evolve further in Europe are still going to hit the natives hard. As it stands now, it seems the most likely result is that diseases going both ways are going to hammer both continents hard...

Yes throughout history lost sailors ended up in the new world, slowly immunizing the white natives. All of this happened all the way up to the time of the second black plague in Europe, which was the first in our timeline. In this timeline the plague that hit russia in the 1700s hits earlier, in this time line 1492. It spreads to Siberia, some fisherman again get lost and end up where the White Natives are. Since the Natives are already carriers of it the Russians showing up gives them an immune shot.
 
es throughout history lost sailors ended up in the new world, slowly immunizing the white natives.
that seems... unlikely. Handfuls of lost sailors just don't seem enough to do it. In the old world, you had trade routes that reached from China to Britain to Spain and the Middle East, and people/diseases moved along these paths back and forth, pathogens swirling through all those populations. The main reason why Old World diseases were so robust. The Americas are just a lot more isolated; you really need sustained large scale contact to provide that much immunity. And if there's that much contact, then the New World hardly needs to be discovered...
 
@JayLeads you should compile your posts in this thread, edit for grammar and syntax, and then reorganize your prose into a consistent, and easily digestible narrative. For example, you started with an Ice Age migration and are now at wayward Greek sailors. You have a fascinating idea, but there are a lot of problems with what you have posted.
 
In this timeline the black plague hit ancient Greece and ancient greek sailors got lost, ended up in the new world, thus showing why the languages are the way they are. Some greeks were semi literate. This is why the White Natives use a mix of greek, balkan, languages and greek and cyrillic writing systems. During this time some greeks and others from the balkans came to escape the plague. There were over all 10,000 who came. Coupled with the White Native lifestyle of living with animals just like in Europe they were more immune to old and new world diseases by the time the europeans came

Why would they entirely take up the Greek language from a few lost sailors? Alphabet and a few loan words maybe, but their language would be no more Greek than English is Greek.

Combine all of that with malaria that animals and people would bring back from the new World back to Europe the European cities were filled with death and disease. The animals that were brought back brought malaria, the rats on the ships had the black plague and malaria.

Malaria and plague are Old World diseases, and malaria is nothing new to Europeans.
 
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