Alternate History Combat Aircraft

The DAR-12 , cause Avia B-534 was equipped with a large number in Bulgarian Air Force, So converted B-534 from a biplane to a single wing fighter. The wings were derived from the B-135(DAR-11) equipped by the Bulgarian Air Force, and the wings and landing gear were produced by DAR company. The aircraft had two 7.92mm machine guns installed on the top of engine fairing , one 20mm Orikon MGFF/M after the engine. The original installation of the machine guns was removed, but the fairing was not large modified, so you can see the original places where the machine gun were install.
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DAR-12 Late, modified the engine fairing
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DAR-12, same with DAR-12, The appearance of the DAR-12 depending on the aircraft used for modification. cause the Avia B-534 also have I/II/III/IV series.
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DAR-13,modified in DAR-3 Garven Biplane to be single wing, wings come from Bulgarian Ar.196 A-3. one fixed machine gun in the engine fairing right side, two 20mm MGFF in the wings, one 7.92mm MG15 movable machine gun.
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Excellent, having any plans on doing updated B.135 and DAR.10?
 
*BUMP*


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Concept of a DC-9 modified into a maritime patrol/strike aircraft. Armament under the wings is an AGM-62 Walleye on one hardpoint, AGM-65 Maverick on the other. Bomb bay added in place of the cargo compartment up front (long enough to hold an Mk 46 torpedo), sonobouy drop points in back. New search radar and MAD in the tail fitted.

Painted in colors of an independent California for fun, maybe a limited nuclear war in the 70s/80s causes the US to fracture and they decide to adapt an aircraft that already had the production lines going? Probably best not to think about it too much. If you were doing a full on redesign I imagine you'd want to tweak the engines and wings to be more efficient at low speed and low level.

A maritime patrol DC-9 was considered OTL, and at least got far enough to have a small scale model made.

8EUGbaF.jpeg


As you can see there's some differences, such as what looks like two bomb bays and propfan engines (which I imagine would have been quite loud). Source for image is page 3 of this thread; https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/unbuilt-asw-marpat-versions-of-airliners.300/
Which has some other interesting/bizarre concepts hiding in it.
 
UNhwYoh.png

Concept of a DC-9 modified into a maritime patrol/strike aircraft. Armament under the wings is an AGM-62 Walleye on one hardpoint, AGM-65 Maverick on the other. Bomb bay added in place of the cargo compartment up front (long enough to hold an Mk 46 torpedo), sonobouy drop points in back. New search radar and MAD in the tail fitted.

Painted in colors of an independent California for fun, maybe a limited nuclear war in the 70s/80s causes the US to fracture and they decide to adapt an aircraft that already had the production lines going? Probably best not to think about it too much. If you were doing a full on redesign I imagine you'd want to tweak the engines and wings to be more efficient at low speed and low level.

A maritime patrol DC-9 was considered OTL, and at least got far enough to have a small scale model made.

8EUGbaF.jpeg


As you can see there's some differences, such as what looks like two bomb bays and propfan engines (which I imagine would have been quite loud). Source for image is page 3 of this thread; https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/unbuilt-asw-marpat-versions-of-airliners.300/
Which has some other interesting/bizarre concepts hiding in it.
Really nice an american Nimrod!
 
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J8S (Saab 37M) Sea Viggen RB199.png

Saab 37 Viggen (Single F100-NE-400 turbofan engine, Air Force version) and Saab 37M Sea Viggen (Twin RB199 Mk.104M turbofan engine, Naval carrier-borne and export version). Entered service as true 4th Gen jet fighter in 1980.
 
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Alright, plane people and drone people, is anyone here available to help my uninformed ass with something for a TTL I’m working on?

I would drop you questions, and anything, be as small as it telling me “look into this for info” or as big as straight up giving me tips on what you think would be plausible, would be deeply appreciated.

I’m thinking about the Yugoslav aviation and drone industry, particularly the company Soko, in a TL where Yugoslavia mostly survives and kind of thrives.
 
Alright, plane people and drone people, is anyone here available to help my uninformed ass with something for a TTL I’m working on?

I would drop you questions, and anything, be as small as it telling me “look into this for info” or as big as straight up giving me tips on what you think would be plausible, would be deeply appreciated.

I’m thinking about the Yugoslav aviation and drone industry, particularly the company Soko, in a TL where Yugoslavia mostly survives and kind of thrives.
Post your questions and somebody will probably know the answer

EDIT: Giving it some thought I think that VTI would assign drones to UTVA while SOKO concentrates on Novi Avion and Super Galeb perhaps even a single seat variant to replace the Jastreb
 
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Post your questions and somebody will probably know the answer
Alright, I will post questions as specific ones come to mind.

EDIT: Giving it some thought I think that VTI would assign drones to UTVA while SOKO concentrates on Novi Avion and Super Galeb perhaps even a single seat variant to replace the Jastreb

Thanks for the reply!

Makes sense given UTVA’s focus on smaller aircraft, the use of its planes for reconnaissance, and its OTL involvement with drones (which I only found out about today lmao).

I’m kind of considering using the Czechs and ofc OTL Yugoslav developments as a rough model for planes and maybe the Turks for drones. Not sure though.

I'll drop my thoughts and questions about your suggestions below (warning, it will be wordy):

Regarding new planes from SOKO:

I figure the Novi Avion comes out a little later than planned (first flight in 93 earliest) and under a different name since Novi Avion feels more like a placeholder.

I figure a big focus becomes pumping out NAs to reduce reliance on MIGs but existing MIGs probably remain in service.

Do you imagine the Super Galeb continuing to be produced or that an upgraded version would be developed? Do you see it being mainly used for training with some use as a light attack plane, or exclusive use for training?

With the Jastreb’s replacement, do you see it as just a roughly analogous 2-seat light attack plane with more modern tech? For a name I suppose J-23 Mišar (buzzard) could work.

Do you think the Orao would just stay in use as IOTL? I know the Romanians stopped using it in favour of F-16s. Might the Yugoslavs similarly stop producing the Orao, to be replaced with their new multirole plane, the NA, perhaps continuing to use their remaining orao planes as long as it's financially sensible to keep using them?

I certainly agree that, comparing to the Czechs, 2-3 military planes from one company in that rough period seems feasible.

Regarding drones:

How many models of drone do you think it’s realistic for Yugoslavia to develop?
I figure the first would simply be a reconnaissance drone akin to the OTL Vrabac but developed earlier?
ITTL there will be unrest in Kosovo-Metohija in the mid to late 2000s, so I wonder if perhaps on the tail end of this conflict, wanting to reduce reliance on foreign drones (or perhaps because the US imposes sanctions on drone exports as it did for Turkey IOTL, though I doubt it would), a MALE UCAV might be developed?

I figure whatever this MALE UCAV is called, maybe Osa or Stšljen (wasp or hornet, in keeping with the tendency towards animal names in both Yugoslav and OTL Serbian aeronautics), it would come to be Yugoslavia's main drone both locally and for exports.

I can see this leading to a bit of a race among local companies to develop military UAVs in the 2010s, so something like EDePro trying to make its own drones.

Maybe also kamikaze drones like the komarac being developed in response to some other conflict in the world where they prove useful.

Regarding future developments:

I picture a number of "we'll eventually do it" prestige projects that are in the works by the modern day. Things like EDePro's unmanned helicopter that may or may not ever actually be completed.

I can see something like a reconnaisance ornithopter also being "in the works" because again "muh cutting edge tech" in some attempt to copy the Chinese.

Perhaps the retrofitting of the NA with some 5th gen equipment to make it a half-assed sort of 4.5 gen?

Yugoslavia might try to develop a 5th gen plane eventually for prestige reasons. Certainly the kind of thing that's only possible with international cooperation with a much larger country, namely I think Non-Aligned Movement ally India, which is working on one IOTL and wouldn't mind the help of Yugoslav engineers.

Regarding international collaboration:

I figure in the weapons industry, there would be collaboration with EU and NAM countries on the development of new models. In the case of aeronautics, I know the Yugoslavs worked with the Romanians IOTL on the Orao, and like I said, India seems like a sensible option for work on planes as well. I think work with the Czechs, with whom Yugoslavia is almost certainly gonna have warm relations, on planes, is likewise feasible. So perhaps the Mišar is a joint project with Aero Vodochody? IDK, just a thought for making things more cost effective by distributing development costs over 2 companies.

I can MAYBE also see work with the Turks on drone development, but that depends on a lot of factors.

Regarding sales:

I figure Yugoslavia is gonna maintain its OTL role of being a big arms dealer in the third world. Especially with the drone I'm provisionally calling the Stršljen, I can see it being similarly successful to say the Bayraktar (albeit a bit more primitive as it would be produced earlier), where it gets sold to a lot of third world countries, mainly ones with ties to Yugoslavia via the NAM.

I can similarly see Soko's planes being sold widely in Southeast Asia and Africa.

What, in your opinion, would, VERY ROUGHLY, be a sensible number of each of the following to produce for domestic use and for export?
  • Super Galeb or its replacement
  • Orao (ORL plane)
  • Mišar (Jastreb replacement)
  • Novi Avion
  • Stršljen (MALE UCAV developed circa 2009)
Does it make sense for Eastern European countries to also buy Yugoslav drones and planes? I can especially see the NA being a popular affordable option for reducing reliance on old MIGs.


If any of this sounds nonsensical, please do let me know.
 

Regarding international collaboration:

I figure in the weapons industry, there would be collaboration with EU and NAM countries on the development of new models. In the case of aeronautics, I know the Yugoslavs worked with the Romanians IOTL on the Orao, and like I said, India seems like a sensible option for work on planes as well. I think work with the Czechs, with whom Yugoslavia is almost certainly gonna have warm relations, on planes, is likewise feasible. So perhaps the Mišar is a joint project with Aero Vodochody? IDK, just a thought for making things more cost effective by distributing development costs over 2 companies.

I can MAYBE also see work with the Turks on drone development, but that depends on a lot of factors.

Regarding sales:

I figure Yugoslavia is gonna maintain its OTL role of being a big arms dealer in the third world. Especially with the drone I'm provisionally calling the Stršljen, I can see it being similarly successful to say the Bayraktar (albeit a bit more primitive as it would be produced earlier), where it gets sold to a lot of third world countries, mainly ones with ties to Yugoslavia via the NAM.

I can similarly see Soko's planes being sold widely in Southeast Asia and Africa.

What, in your opinion, would, VERY ROUGHLY, be a sensible number of each of the following to produce for domestic use and for export?
  • Super Galeb or its replacement
  • Orao (ORL plane)
  • Mišar (Jastreb replacement)
  • Novi Avion
  • Stršljen (MALE UCAV developed circa 2009)
Does it make sense for Eastern European countries to also buy Yugoslav drones and planes? I can especially see the NA being a popular affordable option for reducing reliance on old MIGs.


If any of this sounds nonsensical, please do let me know.
Let me first say that much of it depends on the political and economic situation.
If eastern europe follows the OTL trajectory with most of them joining NATO they will buy American for both political and economic reasons the exception might be Romania that might decide to continue cooperation to upgrade the Orao/Vultur and possibly training aircraft.
As for the listed aircraft, Super Galeb will continue development as it did OTL (Galeb 4M/MD), IMHO Orao will continue in service for quite some time with possible upgrades as I don´t think the economy would allow it to be replaced along with the MiGs by the NA.
The Novi Avion was a rather close collaboration with Dassault so it will probably be kind of a cheaper Rafale which ofcourse places it to compete with say the JAS-39, Tejas and that class of aircraft.
Must admit I never heard of Misar, still think a single seat strengthened Super Galeb is the way to go for light attack along the lines of Hawk, AMX and so on unless they try to make an early UTVA Kobac.
Finally cooperation with Aero Vodochody I think is a nonstarter as they have loads of L-39/59/ALCA that they are desperately trying to sell with little success.
 
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Let me first say that much of it depends on the political and economic situation.
True true. If you want the political context, and can give thoughts in what makes sense within it, feel free to see below. I put it in a spoiler to not clutter the theead.

ITTL, the old NATO members remain in while there is de jure no eastward expansion past Germany (though de facto there may as well be).

With France never reintegrating into joint command for the Yugoslav wars, it begins to push the idea of a new EU mutual defence pact which would work alongside NATO. It’s called EDO (European Defence Organization) in English, ODE in French. New Eastern European EU members with the exception of Yugoslavia, Sweden, and Slovenia on account of their neutrality and special agreements.

Most of these new ODE members also have bilateral agreements with the US a la Korea and Japan. A kind of “NATO expansion in all but name” since it only really means a handful of less militarily important countries like Canada and Turkey aren’t gonna be responsible for defending Poland and the Baltics.

I imagine this means at least more French, German, and maybe (I’m undecided on whether they join EDO but leaning towards yes) British weapons being sold to Eastern Europe alongside US stuff.

Economically, Yugoslavia is more connected with other EU members (it joins ITTL) than with anyone else, but is also on great terms with a lot of third world countries via the non-aligned movement. India in particular, Malaysia, and several African countries. Ghaddafi-era Libya of course, but it gets awkward when Yugoslavias next closest economic partners go topple him in the 2000s. The post-Ghaddafi Libyan government probably does its best to retain good relations with Yugoslavia though. The Congo, Egypt, Ethiopia, and South Africa are all likely to be big Yugoslav economic partners too.

So the Yugoslavs are entwined with both the West and the Global South to varying extents. The EU ITTL operates on 3 mini-schengens so to speak, the Schengen, Novi Sad, and Trencin zones. A kind of EU gradualism, and the Yugoslavs are, unsurprisingly, important in the Novi Sad Zone, which probably strengthens closeness with Romania and Greece at the very least.

The Yugoslavs and Americans are friendly enough, but the Yugoslavs are not firmly in the US sphere, which pisses off the Americans a bit. Not enough to breed serious animosity, but nontheless annoys them a bit at times in an era of global American dominance. That said, they still both have close economic ties and work together on several UN initiatives and the like. Like I said, far from enemies. Not quite sure what a good modern analogue for this position is.

If eastern europe follows the OTL trajectory with most of them joining NATO they will buy American for both political and economic reasons the exception might be Romania that might decide to continue cooperation to upgrade the Orao/Vultur and possibly training aircraft.
Makes sense.

As for the listed aircraft, Super Galeb will continue development as it did OTL (Galeb 4M/MD), IMHO Orao will continue in service for quite some time with possible upgrades as I don´t think the economy would allow it to be replaced along with the MiGs by the NA.
Fair enough. Yugoslavia may be much LESS broke than its OTL successors but it’s still a Balkan country.

The Novi Avion was a rather close collaboration with Dassault so it will probably be kind of a cheaper Rafale which ofcourse places it to compete with say the JAS-39, Tejas and that class of aircraft.
Mmm okok.

Must admit I never heard of Misar, still think a single seat strengthened Super Galeb is the way to go for light attack along the lines of Hawk, AMX and so on unless they try to make an early UTVA Kobac.
Mmm okok, thanks for the tip.

Actually, given the lack of a devastating war in the breakup of Yugoslavia, the Kobac or an analogous plane being made earlier isn’t impossible by any means, just depends how MUCH earlier.

Finally cooperation with Aero Vodochody I think is a nonstarter as they have loads of L-39/59/ALCA that they are desperately trying to sell with little success.

Ah ok, see this is exactly why I need to ask more knowledgeable folks for feedback.
 
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Quickly done two seat F9F night fighter version with the AN/APG-51 from the F3H and an afterburning engine. Early AIM-7s on inboard pylons, AIM-9s on outboard pylons. Based on the position of the radar the guns would probably be removed.
 
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Quickly done two seat F9F night fighter version with the AN/APG-51 from the F3H and an afterburning engine. Early AIM-7s on inboard pylons, AIM-9s on outboard pylons. Based on the position of the radar the guns would probably be removed.
Something for the smaller navies?
 
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