Alternate History Combat Aircraft

There is a massive devepment of engines between the first and second/third generation, on first generation you want as short jetpipe as possible because the longer it is the more power is lost
 
The first flight of the OTL He-178 took place in 1939, I imagined the improved He-200 taking flight in 41 and the He-202 in 44-45.
Had Heinkel received more support and the stupid halt on all experimental projects in 1940 had not been made I believe the He-178 could have been developed into a first rate aircraft but then hindsight is always 20-20.
To think that Germany could have had a jet fighter by maybe 1940 or early 41 if the war didn't happen (Either through Weimar surviving or simply the Nazis being a bit smarter about money. I personally am rather fond of the Weimar option). Probably wouldn't have been a super fighter though, based on this being the literal first jet ever.

Say, would there be any features from the He-280 or or Me-262 (rather unlikely that it would have been build this exact way or that Willy would have any influence in Heinkel matters) that would benefit the the He-202?
 
To think that Germany could have had a jet fighter by maybe 1940 or early 41 if the war didn't happen (Either through Weimar surviving or simply the Nazis being a bit smarter about money. I personally am rather fond of the Weimar option). Probably wouldn't have been a super fighter though, based on this being the literal first jet ever.

Say, would there be any features from the He-280 or or Me-262 (rather unlikely that it would have been build this exact way or that Willy would have any influence in Heinkel matters) that would benefit the the He-202?
Yes I believe so, the swept wing I used on the He-202 came from a late war variant of the He-162 that never went into production.
My thinking with the He-200-202 was how far it could have been developed had work on the plane not been halted in 1940, IMO, quite a bit.

I looked at pics of late war Heinkel, Messerschmitt, Henschel and Focke Wulf jet fighter designs to borrow ideas from and the fact that the Me P.1101 and the Fw. Ta. 183 resemble post war jet fighters (Mig-15, F.86) led to make something similar but not as advanced.

I think I came close to what I wanted and what was possible for the Germans in WWII.
The Germans particularly Udet and Miltch missed out on a golden opportunity back in 39.
Thank God!
 
Yes I believe so, the swept wing I used on the He-202 came from a late war variant of the He-162 that never went into production.
My thinking with the He-200-202 was how far it could have been developed had work on the plane not been halted in 1940, IMO, quite a bit.

I looked at pics of late war Heinkel, Messerschmitt, Henschel and Focke Wulf jet fighter designs to borrow ideas from and the fact that the Me P.1101 and the Fw. Ta. 183 resemble post war jet fighters (Mig-15, F.86) led to make something similar but not as advanced.

I think I came close to what I wanted and what was possible for the Germans in WWII.
The Germans particularly Udet and Miltch missed out on a golden opportunity back in 39.
Thank God!
What angle are the swept wings in the 202? Would you perhaps know what the effects of a HG III like 45° wing sweep would be?

Also, how would the performance of the 202 look like? Max speed and climb rate for example. Wouldn't an early jet work well as an interceptor against heavy bombers? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Lastly, going into the late 40s and early 50s, I wonder how the Heinkel design would evolve. I am thinking at least frame wise something like the Dassault Ouragan? Just as a fighter/interceptor and not as a fighter/bomber.
 
What angle are the swept wings in the 202? Would you perhaps know what the effects of a HG III like 45° wing sweep would be?

Also, how would the performance of the 202 look like? Max speed and climb rate for example. Wouldn't an early jet work well as an interceptor against heavy bombers? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Lastly, going into the late 40s and early 50s, I wonder how the Heinkel design would evolve. I am thinking at least frame wise something like the Dassault Ouragan? Just as a fighter/interceptor and not as a fighter/bomber.
I don't know what the angle of the swept wing I used on the 202 is but it was originally designed for a cheaply produced wooden aircraft so I think an all metal design like the 202 could handle it.

Jet aircraft are great for "boom and zoom" tactics, which would be quite effective against heavy bombers especially if head on attacks as used by veteran Luftwaffe pilots proved in the later half of the Allied bombing campaign against Germany.

I could see the He-202 being replaced post war by something like the Ouragan, F.86 or Mig-15/17.
Going to try drawing something along those lines later.
 
I don't know what the angle of the swept wing I used on the 202 is but it was originally designed for a cheaply produced wooden aircraft so I think an all metal design like the 202 could handle it.

Jet aircraft are great for "boom and zoom" tactics, which would be quite effective against heavy bombers especially if head on attacks as used by veteran Luftwaffe pilots proved in the later half of the Allied bombing campaign against Germany.

I could see the He-202 being replaced post war by something like the Ouragan, F.86 or Mig-15/17.
Going to try drawing something along those lines later.
Can't wait for the next amazing drawing!
Also, what are the dimensions of the 202? I guess similar to the 178, but how would it compare to a 262 or Gloster Meteor?
 
Can't wait for the next amazing drawing!
Also, what are the dimensions of the 202? I guess similar to the 178, but how would it compare to a 262 or Gloster Meteor?
The dimensions for the 202 would be similar to the He-178 but a little bigger. performance wise I would say more maneuverable than both Meteor and 262, speed better than the Meteor and depending on the engine used Jumo 004 or BMW 003 could be similar to the Me-262 or better.
 
The dimensions for the 202 would be similar to the He-178 but a little bigger. performance wise I would say more maneuverable than both Meteor and 262, speed better than the Meteor and depending on the engine used Jumo 004 or BMW 003 could be similar to the Me-262 or better.
Why not HeS 30 or go wild with the HeS 011
 
The dimensions for the 202 would be similar to the He-178 but a little bigger. performance wise I would say more maneuverable than both Meteor and 262, speed better than the Meteor and depending on the engine used Jumo 004 or BMW 003 could be similar to the Me-262 or better.
Well, in a no war or delayed war scenario, we could see the production of those fighters without the resource restrictions and desperation that the Reich later had in OTL.

So imagine more planed engines using actually good metals...
Oh my.
 
I forgot about those, which one came closest to being ready before the war ended?
My understanding is that BMW .003 was almost ready to go into mass production.
Well that depends on the RLM, if development isnt stopped the HeS 30 should be close to production but the 011 is ofcourse far more powerful
 
The Convaur F/AV family of aircraft From my Derailed TL
FAV-12 Goshawk.png

Convair_Model_200_Series.png

Pictures found on the web I only edited names

The Hawker Kestral was the world's first VTOL jet to fly in 1960. The US Navy and Marine Corps were also interested in VTOL aircraft this would lead to the US Navy issuing a requirement for a VTOL capable aircraft in 1961 with the first Prototypes starting flight testing in 1963. Three companies would submitt designs. Rockwell's R325 used a thrust augmented wing design to achieve lift. The Grumman design was based on the Hawker Kestral/Harrier. The Convair design used a thrust vector ingredient main engine and two lifting engines. The Convair design was the only one to meet all the requirements. Like the Harrier the Grumman G.288 was sub sonic.

The Convair C200 would become the F/AV 12 Goshawk. With production starting in 1967. Convair would then reveil the XF-13 and XT-37. Both of these planes took the design of the F/AV-12 removed the thrust vectoring and lift jets to create a light weight CSTOL fighter and trainer. While the US Military would order only small batches of the F-13. 200 aircraft between the Air Force Navy and Marines. However as the Air Wats over the middle east and South America began to heat up the Air Force and Marines bith began to order more F-13s. .The T-37 Tweet would be come the advanced trainer for the USN for decades to come.

Export wise most the FA/F-12 and the Hawker Harrier GR1 would become the main stay of the carrier airwings for the smaller NATO navies such as those of the Imperial Federation Dominions, Spain, Italy, the Republic of China and the Empire of Japan. In addition to serving on the light and escort carriers of the United States Navy and the British Royal Navy. The sale of the NATO jump jets would be restricted to NATO members. This meant that non NATO Nations would turn to the Soviet Union or France to meet their needs for this type of jet. The F-13 and the T-37 versions of the F/AV-12 were allowed to be sold to any nation that wished to purchase them as the US Defense Department viewed them as secondary aircraft. Both of these these aircraft sold a broad as the Convair C-201 and C-202 would compete directly with cheap soviet aircraft like the Yak-27 ,MIG-21, and Me-709 jet fighters that were the Comintern's chief export aircraft by the start of the 1970's.
 
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The Convaur F/AV family of aircraft From my Derailed TL
View attachment 873750
View attachment 873749
Pictures found on the web I only edited names

The Hawker Kestral was the world's first VTOL jet to fly in 1960. The US Navy and Marine Corps were also interested in VTOL aircraft this would lead to the US Navy issuing a requirement for a VTOL capable aircraft in 1961 with the first Prototypes starting flight testing in 1963. Three companies would submitt designs. Rockwell's R325 used a thrust augmented wing design to achieve lift. The Grumman design was based on the Hawker Kestral/Harrier. The Convair design used a thrust vector ingredient main engine and two lifting engines. The Convair design was the only one to meet all the requirements. Like the Harrier the Grumman G.288 was sub sonic.

The Convair C200 would become the F/AV 12 Goshawk. With production starting in 1967. Convair would then reveil the XF-13 and XT-37. Both of these planes took the design of the F/AV-12 removed the thrust vectoring and lift jets to create a light weight CSTOL fighter and trainer. While the US Military would order only small batches of the F-13. 200 aircraft between the Air Force Navy and Marines. However as the Air Wats over the middle east and South America began to heat up the Air Force and Marines bith began to order more F-13s. .The T-37 Tweet would be come the advanced trainer for the USN for decades to come.

Export wise most NATO members would adopt the F/AV-12 as their emergency fighter to support their Harrier ground attack aircraft. Thanks to a multilateral defense deal between all NATO members where all would buy both the American F/AV-12 and the British Harrier. Both aircraft were barred from sale to non NATO members. So while NATOs smaller navies began to transition to Jump Jet Varriers in place of their WWII era carriers non member nations would Turn to the Soviet Union and the Netherlands. Who also had developed VTOL aircraft.

The F-13 enjoyed a large export market. As it was a simple and cheap fighter aircraft.
Good story although I cant really see many non carrier countries adopt VTOL fighters
 
!                                       !=Mg15-F86-Fw183+2.png

Post war German jet fighter from the same timeline as the He-200 and He-202. Engine is the HeS 011, armament 2x30mm cannons.

This was an easy pic, since people have said that both the Mig-15 and the F.86 resembled late war German jet designs I simply took the lower section of the F.86's fuselage (wings and landing gear) and pasted it to the bottom of a Mig-15 and then added the T-top tail from an Fw. Ta.183.
The plane reminds me a lot of the Argentinian FMA I.Ae 33 Pulqui II.

Not sure if I should call this a Heinkel design, I'm sure both Messerschmitt and Focke Wulf would have come up with designs of their own and both the Me P.1101 and the Fw. Ta. 183 were inspirations for me and I think they also inspired the victorious Allies post war designs.
 
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Driftless

Donor
View attachment 873921
Post war German jet fighter from the same timeline as the He-200 and He-202. Engine is the HeS 011, armament 2x30mm cannons.

This was an easy pic, since people have said that both the Mig-15 and the F.86 resembled late war German jet designs I simply took the lower section of the F.86's fuselage (wings and landing gear) and pasted it to the bottom of a Mig-15 and then added the T-top tail from an Fw. Ta.183.
The plane reminds me a lot of the Argentinian FMA I.Ae 33 Pulqui II.

Not sure if I should call this a Heinkel design, I'm sure both Messerschmitt and Focke Wulf would have come up with designs of their own and both the Me P.1101 and the Fw. Ta. 183 were inspirations for me and I think they also inspired the victorious Allies post war designs.
I had to double-check myself by looking it up: the Pulqui was a Kurt Tank design.
 
View attachment 873921
Post war German jet fighter from the same timeline as the He-200 and He-202. Engine is the HeS 011, armament 2x30mm cannons.

This was an easy pic, since people have said that both the Mig-15 and the F.86 resembled late war German jet designs I simply took the lower section of the F.86's fuselage (wings and landing gear) and pasted it to the bottom of a Mig-15 and then added the T-top tail from an Fw. Ta.183.
The plane reminds me a lot of the Argentinian FMA I.Ae 33 Pulqui II.

Not sure if I should call this a Heinkel design, I'm sure both Messerschmitt and Focke Wulf would have come up with designs of their own and both the Me P.1101 and the Fw. Ta. 183 were inspirations for me and I think they also inspired the victorious Allies post war designs.
It's probably the direction most would go, since it still follows classical German designs from OTL.
Now with either post war peace or (again remaining Weimar for my Weimarboo heart) remaining peace, would there be enough research in material and enough resources for the T-top tail of the Ta-183? I remember that the material in OTL were too advance to allow such a tail to work during the mid 40s.
 
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