Alternate German submarine developments.

This was actually done by a couple of US boats off Japan in 1945. It would not be prudent in an area with strong ASW defenses.

Against strong ASW defenses or capability I agree it would be very risky. Against targets with limited capability it could have offered possibilities. At one time I had figures for the weight of various bombardment type rockets. Figure double that for rocket plus launch tube. I actually wrote up one scenario where a Russian sub prepositions itself in the Irish Sea to attack the port of Liverpool at the commenceent
Of hostilities targeting that part of the port where munitions were warehouses. Of course this supposes that the RN would ship munitions out of a port in a major city. Halifax in WWI had to be something of an institutional memory.

Red Tide started on the Bean publishing website and then went to Yahoo around 04 our. I had a number of stories I was working on. One involved elements of Easy Company operating in Normandy involved in counter guerrila operations against French communist partisans. Another was the Wallies forming an advisory unit of former Luftwaffe fighter pilots. Yet another featured a Scicilian priest co-operating with the Mafia to foil a Russian attempt on the Pope.
 
First, I haven't waded through this whole thread. In terms of commercial/cargo subs they only make sense IMO if used for high value cargos. Alloying elements for steels needed for high strength components and cutting tools would be one example. Pharmaceuticals is another. Shell companies in neutral powers using surface vessels could most likely move more material. In terms of combat vessels, more efficient sensors, better torpedoes with homing systems and range and better underwater endurance come to mind.

Another option that came to mind in the old Red Tide 1945 Yahoo group was the use of subs to do rocket attacks on surface or shore based targets using versions of the land based solid rocket bombardment weapons various nations used. Think the racks of rockets mounted on U S Navy amphibs in WW2. Such a weapon system if workable could be used by say the US to conduct raids on Jananese island based airfields with out employing the use of a naval task force.
See page 2.
 
Surcouf style cruiser submarines would be an excellent early war design. Majority of targets early war were sunk using deck gins, and ability to engage destroyers at ranges far exceeding those of said destroyers, the ability to engage them in surface combat and come out on top would force Britain to drastically change its anti submarine tactics as well as dedicate far more heavy ships into convoy escort duty, leaving them vulnerable to a greater degree to Bismarck style sally of capital raiders. Then naturally as war progressed type XXI style subs should start taking over

I suspect this is why they got killed of in the Treaties, pre-radar and able to bridge the Cruiser/Submarine counter-merchant roles they must have looked especially the threat. Given no Treaties or no ToV limitations on Germany, it might be interesting to see both the development and dead ends in building the Cruiser Submarine or Submarine Cruiser?
 

McPherson

Banned
IF this was meant to clarify anything -it failed miserably. You must yield to the findings of the time. I can't begin to imagine this phantasy scenarios of sonobuoys patterns dropped in coordinated fashion with destroyer dashing to achieve the impossible results on a fleet wide basis.

a. You are kidding? Fantasies?

You need to climb down from you singular examples and embrace the real war.

b. Reiterated.

To accurately predict battle results is the most complex modelling, and needs hundreds of examples to approach that.

c. Op-research was cited. Know what that means? Third way of saying; "You are kidding? Fantasies? (^^^^).
 
if you think 36 dispersed examples can prove much of anything -this is indeed a waste of time.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/ASW-51/index.html#contents
The Research in ASW-51 shows Sonobuoys

To some extent however, aircraft can conduct a sonar search by use of Sonobuoys. If the submarine is proceeding at high speed on Schnorchel and is therefore noisy, the effective sweep rate of a group of Sonobuoys monitored by an aircraft may be comparable to that of surface craft using sonar.

......which is reported to be the same as ASDIC ship or 15nm^2 per hour for the group of Sonobuoys or the ASDIC SHIP. The critical difference is a simple convoy escort can search easily for a day sweeping 360nm^2 , while it takes 4 planes just to keep on searching one group of Sonobuoys for 24 hours.


http://www.navairdevcen.org/PDF/THE EVOLUTION OF THE SONOBUOY.pdf

Confirms that Sonobuoys were very short range but only useful after the U-Boat had already been detected....mostly after it crash dives from the surface.

http://oasis.lib.harvard.edu/oasis/deliver/~hua15001

Is only a list of articles....useless.
 

McPherson

Banned
NSA. Please don't reflect what I told you/showed you back at me as if you were teaching me. I already KNOW it since I showed it first and know why I showed it (^^^^). Example: Pinger fence has another purpose or didn't you know this? It is why it is called a FENCE.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
During WWI Germany drew up a design for a heavily-armed sub: U-151. It was to be armored and carry four single 5.9-inch guns plus two single 88mm cannons. I presume the plan was to use these guns on merchantmen. None were even laid down...

Two 88 are plenty for Merchant Ships. The four 5.9 are either designed for anti-warship or anti-land targets.
 
This was actually done by a couple of US boats off Japan in 1945. It would not be prudent in an area with strong ASW defenses.

Never knew that. As stated, I was thinking risk management. As tragic as the loss of a fleet boat would be if sunk, the potential loss of even a light carrier is far worse.
 
NSA. Please don't reflect what I told you/showed you back at me as if you were teaching me. I already KNOW it since I showed it first and know why I showed it (^^^^). Example: Pinger fence has another purpose or didn't you know this? It is why it is called a FENCE.


Why can't you speak English like every one else? What on earth does NSA mean?
 
Two 88 are plenty for Merchant Ships. The four 5.9 are either designed for anti-warship or anti-land targets.

I have found scant material on these but my impression is the weaponry is aimed at tackling armed merchants. In theory they might be pitted against the lightest of ASW patrol vessels, The later development was enthusiastic thus Surcouf, HMS M1, M2 and X-1, and the USS Nautilus/Narwhal. Again, I think the theory is to have a weapon capable of obeying Cruiser rules but even better capable against the armed merchants and maybe the usual escorts. It might force a disproportionate investment of heavier ships as escorts, draining the battle fleet of scouts. In any event the Treaties saw enough threat to squelch it. Without them I think this type gets way more investment and I think we see more attempts to put aircraft to sea in submarines. The various navies were poised to pursue this even if a dead end.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
I have found scant material on these but my impression is the weaponry is aimed at tackling armed merchants. In theory they might be pitted against the lightest of ASW patrol vessels, The later development was enthusiastic thus Surcouf, HMS M1, M2 and X-1, and the USS Nautilus/Narwhal. Again, I think the theory is to have a weapon capable of obeying Cruiser rules but even better capable against the armed merchants and maybe the usual escorts. It might force a disproportionate investment of heavier ships as escorts, draining the battle fleet of scouts. In any event the Treaties saw enough threat to squelch it. Without them I think this type gets way more investment and I think we see more attempts to put aircraft to sea in submarines. The various navies were poised to pursue this even if a dead end.

I can see this mindset. The need for airplanes as scouts for submarines is compelling, and there is a huge advantage in being able for force convoys to also have a couple of cruisers protecting them. Without the treaties and with some nation pursing submarines more seriously, then I think the solution falls either to specially built cruisers for the role or AMC if doing it on the cheap or last minute. The Japanese built one or two of these ships, but when not used in the intended role, the ship was a port queen without a job. You basically need 6 guns of the 6" to 8" range and enough armor to easily handle 5" guns and massively long ranges. The back of the ship carries the 6+ airplanes needed. And you need submarines that can keep up with the ship and have very long ranges. And you need to deal with the electronic emission issues associated with coordinating the group.

So since we are on German subs, you basically need to not be so worried about tonnage and built 5 very long range subs designed to operate with the surface raider ships. Then at least in theory, these 5 subs plus the Graf Spee can unleash untold havoc in the South Atlantic. And the Japanese version could have done the same in the Indian Ocean. It is debatable if these combinations work. Strong supporters like me will say in the right conditions, yes, for a few months at a time.

This ship may have been seen as you say. Too heavy for a AMC, too long range for escort destroyers, and the torpedoes can handle cruisers. Probably the best way to tell is look at the range. If designed with significantly more range (say the converted Merchant Subs), then this ship may well have been designed for extended operations well away from Royal Navy bases.

Now what I really think works just using a regular warship who operates with subs, and this would take prewar practice. If one thinks something like the Bismark breakout where it is at least coordinated with U-boats, then it might be a different game. Or if the Japanese had been willing to risk a heavy cruiser with a handful of subs on a long range mission to try to shut down some shipping lanes. It is just that most admirals will not be willing to risk "war winning ships" in anti-freighter operations.
 
IIRC a few US subs did fire some rockets at mainland Japan in 1945. Of course by this time the IJN had few ships to counter such a strike and both the IJA and IJN had few aircraft to try and interdict such an attack. Such an attack against an enemy that could put up ASW ships and aircraft would be risky at best...
One sub, the USS Barb. The rockets were ineffectual compared to gunfire or landing party sabotage. Around the same time several surface ships engaged in shore bombardment with far greater effect.
 

McPherson

Banned
I've just finished reading the Barb's war patrol logs. Incredible. Fluckey was a MADMAN. He would try anything.
 
Practically, and the French learned this the hard way with Surcouf, the cruiser sub's 15.5 cm guns' range was cut to less than in half and so was the effective fire rate. Has something to do with hull roll, pitch and yaw. A sub is not a very good gun platform. So, a Tribal could easily close and probably swiss-cheese a cruiser sub from 15,000 meters out to 12,000 meters in about 2 minutes with her own 12 cm guns barking salvoes of 50 or so shells aggregate per minute total as ladders well within their guns' effective range from the four barrels (12-13 RPM per barrel). Might want to be able to dive before that happens? Just sayin'.

8 barrels on a Tribal (4 twin Turrets) so even worse more like 100 RPM ;)
 
So since we are on German subs, you basically need to not be so worried about tonnage and built 5 very long range subs designed to operate with the surface raider ships. Then at least in theory, these 5 subs plus the Graf Spee can unleash untold havoc in the South Atlantic. And the Japanese version could have done the same in the Indian Ocean. It is debatable if these combinations work. Strong supporters like me will say in the right conditions, yes, for a few months at a time.

This ship may have been seen as you say. Too heavy for a AMC, too long range for escort destroyers, and the torpedoes can handle cruisers. Probably the best way to tell is look at the range. If designed with significantly more range (say the converted Merchant Subs), then this ship may well have been designed for extended operations well away from Royal Navy bases.

Now what I really think works just using a regular warship who operates with subs, and this would take prewar practice. If one thinks something like the Bismark breakout where it is at least coordinated with U-boats, then it might be a different game. Or if the Japanese had been willing to risk a heavy cruiser with a handful of subs on a long range mission to try to shut down some shipping lanes. It is just that most admirals will not be willing to risk "war winning ships" in anti-freighter operations.

in the early 1930s German navy discussed possible plans for future war and could only agree on massive investment in U-Boat war to severe the transatlantic life line from America to Europe through the UK. All other navy building had to support this U-boat war and the initial plan was 6 new improved pocket battleships along with 6 new Kreuzers. As Nazi took control- these plans expanded to as many as 8 newer Panzerschiffe, while a dozen was proposed to support the U-Boat commerce war. However Hitler had other ideas and gambled that pandering to UK would defer the need for massive German naval investment until the 1940s. So the breaks were put on navel expansion against RN until Reader convinced Hitler that a smaller fleet of capital ships could fly the flag and still be used to bottle up the French fleet.

Truth be told the historical naval building was enough to have instead built a dozen Panzerschiffe plus a lesser number of improved PBS by 1941.
 
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