Alternate Foods and Drinks

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Goat and a sheep in the US

Sheep as in mutton or lamb? Seems like there's different versions of it out there. A lot of restaurants have lamb in various forms. It probably could be as popular as, say, pork is. Might be interesting the effects that might have on demand for sheep and raising sheep in the American West and those states.

For goat, I don't think I've ever seen goat outside of ethnic restaurants, but since that goat curry you can get at Indian places is tasty, it sure could use more exposure. Kinda odd since it seems like goats are everywhere in rural parts of the US.
 
Sheep as in mutton or lamb? Seems like there's different versions of it out there. A lot of restaurants have lamb in various forms. It probably could be as popular as, say, pork is. Might be interesting the effects that might have on demand for sheep and raising sheep in the American West and those states.

For goat, I don't think I've ever seen goat outside of ethnic restaurants, but since that goat curry you can get at Indian places is tasty, it sure could use more exposure. Kinda odd since it seems like goats are everywhere in rural parts of the US.
Both are less than 2% of the market in the US and I want to add rabbit as well. Rabbit and guinea pig is also less than 2% of the market in the US. The over whelming majority is swine, cattle and poultry in the forms of chicken and turkey. Hell duck and goose is rare as well.
 
Both are less than 2% of the market in the US and I want to add rabbit as well. Rabbit and guinea pig is also less than 2% of the market in the US. The over whelming majority is swine, cattle and poultry in the forms of chicken and turkey. Hell duck and goose is rare as well.

I don't see guinea pig ever becoming big in the US, but at least it could be like rabbit and sold in most supermarkets. It's actually illegal in some states (because it's protected under the same laws cats and dogs are) to sell guinea pig meat. Some Latino communities (Ecuadorian and Peruvian immigrants) have sued to allow it to be sold, but sadly it'll take a while.

I'd say lamb is probably more likely to claim a larger part of the market, since I see lamb more than duck/goose (and definitely more than rabbit) at both stores, restaurants, etc. You could have more American Christians shying away from pork because of Biblical laws and eating lamb instead, for instance.
 
I don't see guinea pig ever becoming big in the US, but at least it could be like rabbit and sold in most supermarkets. It's actually illegal in some states (because it's protected under the same laws cats and dogs are) to sell guinea pig meat. Some Latino communities (Ecuadorian and Peruvian immigrants) have sued to allow it to be sold, but sadly it'll take a while.

I'd say lamb is probably more likely to claim a larger part of the market, since I see lamb more than duck/goose (and definitely more than rabbit) at both stores, restaurants, etc. You could have more American Christians shying away from pork because of Biblical laws and eating lamb instead, for instance.
I could see that, I also think if we get a more diverse migrant background, especially from Southeast Asia and Latin America goat and duck could be much more popular
 
For all you guys chatting about meat!

How about candied meats?
Like how many of you eat meat with some sort of fruit jello or sugary sauce like cranberry, pomegranate or honey?
In 16th century Europe lots of wealthy nobles enjoyed meats glazed with a sugary coating, and colored to resemble different fruits. I think they were superstitious of fresh fruit and vegetables and believed fresh fruit was unhealthy. So they would imitate fruits with sugar coated meats.

So why not let this idea develop? So today, candied meats are a common sweet treat. Much like we enjoy candied fruits in our timeline.
We can even go one step further too; Candied meats with a chocolate coating. After somebody realizes mixing cacao with sugar makes something super yummy! ITTL, our analog of Belgian Chocolates are meat filled rather than caramel, nuts and cream.


As a vegetarian I also wonder why your 'western' diets have to be so meat centered. Like the meat is the center of your dish and everything else just compliments and supports.
Why not have western diets which are less meat focused, and instead use meat as a garnish. In history, particularly in regions like Egypt, the Levant, Persia and the Indian subcontinent, raising animals for meat was considered an extreme indulgence rather than something everybody would do. Our recipes are far more vegetable and bread based. Meats, when they are consumed, are used as a garnish to add flavor. So its kind of rare for people to eat huge steaks and racks of smoked ribs. I understand nomadic hunter-gatherer tribes in Northern Europe and the Americas had a much more meat centered diet because animals were plenty and probably easier to hunt. But people must have foraged for nuts, berries and herbs too. Even if just to add seasoning and marinade for their hunted meats.
Perhaps this is where the western idea of meat focused dishes arose? and because Europeans colonized the Americas in our timeline, the idea kind of stuck and caught on because there were already nomadic hunting tribes with meat rich diets in the plains of North America?
If another region had colonized the Americas instead, say India, Persia or Egypt, or even a surviving Al-Andalus, do you think western diets would be less meat focused and be more vegetable and bread based instead? Or instead maybe the nomadic hunter-gatherer tribes of Europe and north America develop agriculture and learn farming early instead of foraging and hunting?
 
As a vegetarian I also wonder why your 'western' diets have to be so meat centered. Like the meat is the center of your dish and everything else just compliments and supports.
Why not have western diets which are less meat focused, and instead use meat as a garnish. In history, particularly in regions like Egypt, the Levant, Persia and the Indian subcontinent, raising animals for meat was considered an extreme indulgence rather than something everybody would do.
That was historically the case in Europe, too. The wealthy elite might frequently have meat, but the everyday peasant wouldn't (except in a few marginal cases like Norwegian fishers or Lappish reindeer herders, where the economics worked out differently). The meat-sweet diet is an invention of the past two hundred years, and emerged because first of all technical advances made it much cheaper and easier to produce and distribute meat than it previously had been, and secondly because, to be frank, people really like meat. It's well-nigh universally considered a delicacy in pre-modern societies and humans are just built to prefer it when possible. I mean, this is easily explicable from a biological point of view--meat is a calorie and nutrient-rich food source, so in pre-modern eras it was good for people to prefer to eat it when available.

Because of this, assuming that meatpacking, refrigeration, and transportation technology still advances to the point where meat can be produced cheaply I don't see any way of avoiding meat-sweet. If Europe is less prominent for some reason or another, the most globally influential foods will look different, but they'll still, almost assuredly, involve a lot of meat.
 

EMTSATX

Banned
I had never eaten goat until I was sent to Afghanistan. I thought it was very OK.

I watched something on TV about Peruvians eating Guiena pigs. To be honest it freaked me out. I thought it would be like eating a rat. I freely admit I am freaked out by all rodents. I can take anything else but rodents freak me out, including rabbits.

How people can eat raccoons and possums are beyond me. They taste horrible.
 
Like how many of you eat meat with some sort of fruit jello or sugary sauce like cranberry, pomegranate or honey?

Turkey and cranberry sauce.


We can even go one step further too; Candied meats with a chocolate coating. After somebody realizes mixing cacao with sugar makes something super yummy! ITTL, our analog of Belgian Chocolates are meat filled rather than caramel, nuts and cream.

Tried that, it didn't work out twell. Hot meat with chocolate sauce does, on the other hand.


As a vegetarian I also wonder why your 'western' diets have to be so meat centered. Like the meat is the center of your dish and everything else just compliments and supports.
Why not have western diets which are less meat focused, and instead use meat as a garnish. In history, particularly in regions like Egypt, the Levant, Persia and the Indian subcontinent, raising animals for meat was considered an extreme indulgence rather than something everybody would do. Our recipes are far more vegetable and bread based. Meats, when they are consumed, are used as a garnish to add flavor. So its kind of rare for people to eat huge steaks and racks of smoked ribs. I understand nomadic hunter-gatherer tribes in Northern Europe and the Americas had a much more meat centered diet because animals were plenty and probably easier to hunt. But people must have foraged for nuts, berries and herbs too. Even if just to add seasoning and marinade for their hunted meats.
Perhaps this is where the western idea of meat focused dishes arose? and because Europeans colonized the Americas in our timeline, the idea kind of stuck and caught on because there were already nomadic hunting tribes with meat rich diets in the plains of North America?
If another region had colonized the Americas instead, say India, Persia or Egypt, or even a surviving Al-Andalus, do you think western diets would be less meat focused and be more vegetable and bread based instead? Or instead maybe the nomadic hunter-gatherer tribes of Europe and north America develop agriculture and learn farming early instead of foraging and hunting?

Protein is necessary for growth. There is a limit to how much you can grow with consuming only plant proteins.
 
That was historically the case in Europe, too. The wealthy elite might frequently have meat, but the everyday peasant wouldn't (except in a few marginal cases like Norwegian fishers or Lappish reindeer herders, where the economics worked out differently). The meat-sweet diet is an invention of the past two hundred years, and emerged because first of all technical advances made it much cheaper and easier to produce and distribute meat than it previously had been, and secondly because, to be frank, people really like meat. It's well-nigh universally considered a delicacy in pre-modern societies and humans are just built to prefer it when possible. I mean, this is easily explicable from a biological point of view--meat is a calorie and nutrient-rich food source, so in pre-modern eras it was good for people to prefer to eat it when available.

Because of this, assuming that meatpacking, refrigeration, and transportation technology still advances to the point where meat can be produced cheaply I don't see any way of avoiding meat-sweet. If Europe is less prominent for some reason or another, the most globally influential foods will look different, but they'll still, almost assuredly, involve a lot of meat.
Unless a genuine productive vegetarian culture develops. This is difficult, but not impossible. India has about 390 million vegetarians today, or 500 million if you include those who consume eggs - which is around 40% of the total population. That still leaves the majority of people who consume meat, though the Muslim community of India have an effect there - if Islam had not been introduced to India, the proportion of vegetarians would be closer to 50-50.

In other words, it's feasible to envision a world where close to half of the population consume only eggs and dairy as their sources of animal products. Not easy, but not beyond the bounds of probability.

Protein is necessary for growth. There is a limit to how much you can grow with consuming only plant proteins.
Not really. The bioavailability of plant protein is only marginally less than that of animal protein - and come to that, not all animal protein is the same. There are vegan body-builders. By dry weight, there's more protein in 100g of most pulses than in the average beefsteak.

That said, it's easier to have animal products from eggs or dairy for some of the protein, and Vitamin B12 is essentially available only from animal sources, so some animal products are necessary. Just not for protein.
 
I had never eaten goat until I was sent to Afghanistan. I thought it was very OK.

I watched something on TV about Peruvians eating Guiena pigs. To be honest it freaked me out. I thought it would be like eating a rat. I freely admit I am freaked out by all rodents. I can take anything else but rodents freak me out, including rabbits.

How people can eat raccoons and possums are beyond me. They taste horrible.

Fatten racoons and possums and possums on fruit, get them younger and keep the confined. Don't eat them if they are older and especially breeding males
 
Both are less than 2% of the market in the US and I want to add rabbit as well. Rabbit and guinea pig is also less than 2% of the market in the US. The over whelming majority is swine, cattle and poultry in the forms of chicken and turkey. Hell duck and goose is rare as well.

While rabbit is tasty and cheap to grow, the meat is too lean to make it a staple food (google search "rabbit starvation"). That being said, wild cows are a lot different from domestic cows... maybe a concerted breeding program could have produced plumper rabbits which would be healthier for human consumption and make up a larger part of the western diet.
 
As a vegetarian I also wonder why your 'western' diets have to be so meat centered. Like the meat is the center of your dish and everything else just compliments and supports.
Why not have western diets which are less meat focused, and instead use meat as a garnish. In history, particularly in regions like Egypt, the Levant, Persia and the Indian subcontinent, raising animals for meat was considered an extreme indulgence rather than something everybody would do. Our recipes are far more vegetable and bread based. Meats, when they are consumed, are used as a garnish to add flavor. So its kind of rare for people to eat huge steaks and racks of smoked ribs. I understand nomadic hunter-gatherer tribes in Northern Europe and the Americas had a much more meat centered diet because animals were plenty and probably easier to hunt. But people must have foraged for nuts, berries and herbs too. Even if just to add seasoning and marinade for their hunted meats.
Perhaps this is where the western idea of meat focused dishes arose? and because Europeans colonized the Americas in our timeline, the idea kind of stuck and caught on because there were already nomadic hunting tribes with meat rich diets in the plains of North America?
If another region had colonized the Americas instead, say India, Persia or Egypt, or even a surviving Al-Andalus, do you think western diets would be less meat focused and be more vegetable and bread based instead? Or instead maybe the nomadic hunter-gatherer tribes of Europe and north America develop agriculture and learn farming early instead of foraging and hunting?

I don't know about that. Obviously pre-modern western diets had less meat since that was before factory farming of animals. But American Indians generally had to supplement their diets with hunting for various reasons (agricultural peoples in Eastern North America), in addition to those who were entirely hunter-gatherers (Plains Indians, West Coast Indians, etc.). It's interesting that meat-rich dishes like Southern-styled barbecues and South American asado are New World in origin, but the fact that those nations are so rich in agricultural land used for cattle ranching is part of the reason.

You have Egypt, Persia, India, etc. colonising the New World, they'll still have a large availability in ranching land and in general, a lesser population density allowing for more livestock. India at least has Dharmic religions and their vegetarian tendencies, but I think their experiences on the frontier would challenge that mentality so that you've have far less vegetarians amongst those Indic New Worlders.

For North American Indians, the best chance for less hunting and meat in their diets is for the Eastern Agricultural Complex to not be abandoned in favour of maize and other Mesoamerican crops.

I first had goat several years ago, in an Indian restaurant; I rather liked it.

Everytime I had goat at an Indian restaurant, it had bones in it you had pick around. Certainly you can have more "bone-out" goat meat sold. And I reiterate my previous point about how rare goat meat is despite the large variety of goat breeds and indeed, goat flocks, in Western countries.

While rabbit is tasty and cheap to grow, the meat is too lean to make it a staple food (google search "rabbit starvation"). That being said, wild cows are a lot different from domestic cows... maybe a concerted breeding program could have produced plumper rabbits which would be healthier for human consumption and make up a larger part of the western diet.

Maybe in the past, but nowadays with such a health-focused society, rabbit could (and IMO should) rise in popularity since it's a cheap, lean, and healthy meat. The concept of rabbit starvation has uses for weight loss.

Fatten racoons and possums and possums on fruit, get them younger and keep the confined. Don't eat them if they are older and especially breeding males

I believe in many parts of the US, it's illegal to keep those animals in captivity (for pets or livestock). Gotta change the laws to get them integrated into cuisine. A lot of people shy away from them because they're such a common source of rabies. Which you can hunt them or pick them up as roadkill (legal to process roadkilled animals in many states), but they have a stereotype of disease surrounding them (they're dirty pests for one) that makes it hard to ever make a market.

I agree they would make good livestock (it's classic Southern US cuisine), but there's still the laws surrounding keeping them to overcome. Speaking of roadkill pests, there seems to be a market for armadillo I've seen, so perhaps it isn't entirely hopeless. Florida's gator cuisine (my Grandpa describes gator as like chicken but with a "metallic reptilian tinge" to it, which I'd completely agree from my experiences with it) is a good model to follow to get possum and raccoon served more widely.

Since I mentioned gators, what if they became more popular in general? Crocodile/alligator skin is a popular leather, so why not the meat of the animals too?
 
You have Egypt, Persia, India, etc. colonising the New World, they'll still have a large availability in ranching land and in general, a lesser population density allowing for more livestock. India at least has Dharmic religions and their vegetarian tendencies, but I think their experiences on the frontier would challenge that mentality so that you've have far less vegetarians amongst those Indic New Worlders.

For North American Indians, the best chance for less hunting and meat in their diets is for the Eastern Agricultural Complex to not be abandoned in favour of maize and other Mesoamerican crops.

This makes a lot of sense. Although if the Americas were colonized by an empire based on the Indian subcontinent, would they still be farming cattle? Because cows are sacred to Hinduism. So eating cow is kind of forbidden. What other livestock would colonies from the Indian subcontinent raise in the Americas? Would they farm something local, like caribou, or bring their own animals? Could elephants and goats fill this niche?

I think it would be fun seeing how Inca, Nahuatl, Mayan and Indic fusion cuisine develop. I wonder how the Inca would view cinnamon, and the Indic colonies use cacao.

I imagine such an empire would first reach Australia, and then cross the south pacific to what is now Peru, and then grow from there. Maybe Australia would eventually have huge cinnamon and cacao plantations. Cinnamon and cacao becomes a common spice combination in whatever recipes develop.
 
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This makes a lot of sense. Although if the Americas were colonized by an empire based on the Indian subcontinent, would they still be farming cattle? Because cows are sacred to Hinduism. So eating cow is kind of forbidden. What other livestock would colonies from the Indian subcontinent raise in the Americas? Would they farm something local, like caribou, or bring their own animals? Could elephants fill this niche?

I think it would be fun seeing how Inca, Nahuatl, Mayan and Indic fusion cuisine develop. I wonder how the Inca would view cinnamon, and the Indic colonies use cacao.

I imagine such an empire would first reach Australia, and then cross the south pacific to what is now Peru, and then grow from there. Maybe Australia would eventually have huge cinnamon and cacao plantations. Cinnamon and cacao becomes a common spice combination in whatever recipes develop.

Caribou needs to be domesticated first. The North American subspecies is equally domesticatable as the Siberian and Scandinavian subspecies, but has a rather annoying migratory element to them. Personally I think it's very plausible for domesticated caribou, which because of their potential uses, spreads from Alaska down to Montana or so where the limits of the caribou are due to various deer species which contain parasites which are fatal to caribou. Maybe with human manipulation you might get as far south as Colorado, but not much further, and not large numbers. In any case, it's one of the American Indian's major animals for hauling things and for eating.

And we know tomatoes and potatoes are well-incorporated into cuisine throughout Asia. My knowledge of Indian, Thai, and Chinese cuisine extends as far as restaurants in my area, but cinnamon and cacao seem odd to me combined, let alone incorporated into those cuisines. Maybe you can do it, but will people make that mix?

Australia has very poor soil for farming. But it does have interesting spices, like the spice myrtles or Tasmannia pepperbushes. The bloodroot plant found in Australia seems to be good for a spice to be marketed.
 

EMTSATX

Banned
Fatten racoons and possums and possums on fruit, get them younger and keep the confined. Don't eat them if they are older and especially breeding males
I'll have to take your word for it. I tried it, being from West Virginia several times. I would prefer to never do it again.

Maybe the worst meat I have ever tried was bear.
 
I'll have to take your word for it. I tried it, being from West Virginia several times. I would prefer to never do it again.

Maybe the worst meat I have ever tried was bear.

Very sad I've lived in the rural South almost my whole life and have never actually eaten possum nor raccoon and certainly not bear (had fun moments encountering dead possums, though). No way can it be a terrible meat. No meat can be bad, it can just lesser than other meats.
 
Caribou needs to be domesticated first. The North American subspecies is equally domesticatable as the Siberian and Scandinavian subspecies, but has a rather annoying migratory element to them. Personally I think it's very plausible for domesticated caribou, which because of their potential uses, spreads from Alaska down to Montana or so where the limits of the caribou are due to various deer species which contain parasites which are fatal to caribou. Maybe with human manipulation you might get as far south as Colorado, but not much further, and not large numbers. In any case, it's one of the American Indian's major animals for hauling things and for eating.

And we know tomatoes and potatoes are well-incorporated into cuisine throughout Asia. My knowledge of Indian, Thai, and Chinese cuisine extends as far as restaurants in my area, but cinnamon and cacao seem odd to me combined, let alone incorporated into those cuisines. Maybe you can do it, but will people make that mix?

Australia has very poor soil for farming. But it does have interesting spices, like the spice myrtles or Tasmannia pepperbushes. The bloodroot plant found in Australia seems to be good for a spice to be marketed.


wow, ty. I'm getting lots of ideas for a food timeline. Do you think Caribou would do well in Australia or New Zealand? I wonder what animals native to Australia and New Zealand a possible Indic empire could domesticate.


Those Australian herbs and spices you mention all look amazing. I could have so much creative food fun with those! I will have to try and get some and play.
I would think Australian spices could spread fast as they're incorporated into other cuisines. At first settlers from an Indic or Persian empire try and emulate their local dishes with spices indigenous to Australia. Then they get creative and fuse their recipes with aboriginal recipes. Some settlers take the new recipes and spices to India and Persia, and on to the Americas.

I can see somebody mixing Cinnamon and Cacao together just to know how it tastes. Perhaps traders on a long sea voyage from India to North America, making lots of stops along the way, so they have cargo filled with different spices and fruits from India, Australia, and South and central America. They get hungry and decide to eat whatever's on board. So the ship's chef cooks something up which involves mixing cinnamon, cacao and other spices to smooth and contrast the flavors. Which they use to spice tomatoes, potato, mango and fish or meat. The spice mix is so yummy the recipe spreads.
 
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wow, ty. I'm getting lots of ideas for a food timeline. Do you think Caribou would do well in Australia or New Zealand? I wonder what animals native to Australia and New Zealand a possible Indic empire could domesticate.


Those Australian herbs and spices you mention all look amazing. I could have so much creative food fun with those! I will have to try and get some and play.
I would imagine the Australian spices could spread fast as they get incorporated into other cuisines. At first settlers from an Indic or Persian empire try and emulate their local Persian and Indian dishes with spices indigenous to Australia. Then they get creative and fuse their recipes with aboriginal recipes. Some settlers take the new recipes and spices to India and Persia, and on to the Americas.

I can see somebody mixing Cinnamon and Cacao together just to know how it tastes. Perhaps traders on a long sea voyage from India to North America, making lots of stops along the way, so they have cargo filled with different spices and fruits from India, Australia, and South and central America. They get hungry and decide to eat whatever's on board. So the ship's chef cooks something up which involves mixing cinnamon, cacao and other spices to smooth and contrast the flavors. Which they use to spice tomatoes, potato, mango and fish or meat.

Do you know of the Lands of Red and Gold timeline here? That has quite the information about Australian plants, in addition to being a great read.

But I don't think cinnamon and cacao are good together in anything but a dessert. Hell, chocolate sauce sprinkled with cinnamon is basically that. I know cacao has other uses than sweets, but isn't even the original cacao not much more than really dark chocolate? Cinnamon at least is good for mixing with other spices and such--at least it's well used for sweet potatoes.

A lot of Australian spices don't seem to occur in Western Australia, which is where any Persian or Indian explorers would be landing in. They do have bloodroot at least, as well as a few others which Europeans regarded as inferior counterparts to other spices, which is a problem which faces most Australian spices, although the polygodial in the Tasmannia species makes it a bit unique, and I believe Australian bloodroot has a unique and intense spicy flavour which could be of some use.

Biggest Australian plant could be the wattle trees, some species of which are invasive in parts of the world because of how well they thrive. There's some use of wattle trees in the Sahel to ward off desertification (they take well to the climate plus give needed firewood/charcoal). Of course, their seeds can be grounded into flour and made into a very healthy bread as which sustained the Australian Aboriginals, and nowadays in Africa is mixed with other grains to make a similarly healthy flour. The potential for those trees seem huge, and could at the very least be a famine crop (in addition to the firewood they give) if they were introduced earlier (go with the supposed 16th century Portuguese discovery of Australia?)
 
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