Not people, wildlife, I never said people. But you are right to a degree but by the time of the 15th century Europe had populations that were many times larger than what was found in both of the Americas. I am thinking animals like roe, fallow and red deer going extinct due to over hunting, as well as waterfowl and many other types of birds. Also overfishing will do a number. Pigs are vital to northern European diets.
Alternate Foods and Drinks
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The question still stands. What essential nutrients are found in red meat alone? I don't know of a single one, and I have some knowledge of nutrition. There's precious few essential nutrients which are found in animal products only, never mind red meat. (Vitamin B12, possibly a few others like creatine or taurine which may not be produced by the body in sufficient quantity, but not too many others). Poultry would cover Vitamin B12 perfectly well, as would any fish in the diet, to say nothing of dairy products in many areas.
The thing is you are overestimating the populations of wildlife back then and farm animals, pigs breed by the dozens and offer a large amount of meat from animals that people can only use when dead. Cattle for milk and draft, sheep and goats for milk and wool, poultry for feathers and eggs. Also pigs eat refuse and wild foods.
The truth about meat
September 18, 2010 by retrieverman
From George Monbiot, who is a greenie and vegan, in case you didn’t know.
As I have said many times, if your ancestors were European serfs, their main source of red meat was the pig.
Pigs fatten on refuse.
Cows fatten on grains, and in the Middle Ages, they were too useful as draft animals and mil producers to be raised solely for consumption.
Sheep, especially when the wool trade took off in the days of the Hanseatic League, were also too useful to be raised solely for food. It’s with the rise of the wool trade in England that the Enclosure began– under Henry VII.
Because all of those other animals were useful for other purposes, pigs became the peasant’s protein.
This tradition continued in the New World. In many American homes as late as the middle of the twentieth century, ham was the main course for Thanksgiving.
This tradition is not as widespread, although I’d rather eat pork than domestic turkey any day.
Maybe pigs will be a solution to some of these ecological problems that are associated with meat consumption.
https://retrieverman.net/2010/09/18/the-truth-about-meat/
Chickens eat refuse and wild foods, too. And as I said in my last post, milk and dairy products was significant, and not just from cows. Sheep were also milked.
The comments on that article are also illustrative: references to the diversity of the diet, including animals products, with chickens noted as being common. Having a ham as the source of meat at Thanksgiving and Easter is neither here nor there; if that's the only time they're eating it, it's not that significant a part of the diet.
The broader point, though, is that pigs are substitutable. Pigs were a major source of protein in OTL, but far from the only one even for peasants, and the protein could be replaced by other sources. A dearth of pigs does not mean the nutritional collapse of northern Europe.
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I agree, what I am trying to get at is that pigs breed faster, have larger numbers of offspring and grow to a decent size and provide a lot of meat. No other farm animal or wild animal does this while eating acorns and roots. Also many male cattle were castrated and turned into oxen because horses were not that common.
South Asian and Southeast Asian Buddhist temple cusine in an attempt to protract the killing of living things including plants refrain from all annual plants and only eat things that are vegetatively grown (except tubers and root vegetables which OTL are banned)
Diets center around plantain, breadfruit, coconut, sugar cane variously fermented and used as the base for all foods.
Basically Oceanian diets gain a much greater foothold and it leads the pious to not cut down Forest's for rice fields.
BTW maduro caramelized to the utmost and left a tiny bit charred is a wonderful base for wots and thick curries with the right amounts of spices and flavorings.
Diets center around plantain, breadfruit, coconut, sugar cane variously fermented and used as the base for all foods.
Basically Oceanian diets gain a much greater foothold and it leads the pious to not cut down Forest's for rice fields.
BTW maduro caramelized to the utmost and left a tiny bit charred is a wonderful base for wots and thick curries with the right amounts of spices and flavorings.
I am going to begin a victoria 2 game as Persia, and i was wondering the plausibility of Persia becoming a colonial power in Africa, with a POD no earlier than 1836? I like to keep an air of plausibility to my Pdox games. Thank you
My mother was a subsistence farmer and with all the subsistence farmers I have ever met chicken was a rare and very special meal because they were too important for their eggs. I'd go so far as to say it was a delicacy whereas the backbone of cookery for many populations is pork because the caloric density of lardy meat.
Certainly, in some forms of subsistence farming, chicken is rarely eaten, though roosters are more commonly consumed than hens since they don't lay the eggs and it usually doesn't need as many roosters as hens. It does vary over time and location, though. In this context, though, chickens are still providing protein and other essential nutrients via their eggs. (I don't know whether the isotopic studies of diet can distinguish between consumption of eggs vs chicken meat.)
Bioavailability of proteins vary eggs were at one time given a value of 100 and chicken meat around 80 but I'd argue before battery chicken raising and the development of "super egg layer" breeds of chicken the amount of egg protein in diet was much reduced.
In Southeast Asia with the Indian Runner duck egg production increased but that's a very local situation for quite sometime until their export abroad
Yes, the context of what I wrote was basically a perfect score of protein avaliabilty before advancements in whey isolates changed the values. That isn't to say every bit of nitrogen is absorbed and excreted but that until processed supplements came through it was the greatest protien source.
What about different wines and wine regions? Islam caused such a decline for Middle Eastern and North African wine. Even though it still existed, it never had the chance to fluorish as it could have in some other timeline, and no doubt the extinction of numerous grape varietals--did colonialism in North Africa cause the replacement of native grapes with European grapes as I suspect? I have no doubt the vineyards of Persia, Egypt, and Syria would produce as fine of wine as they did in Antiquity.
Perhaps also more drinks like port might emerge. Any fine restaurant in the United States will have at least one port to offer. How popular could some of these alternate dessert wines become? Certainly the MENA region has many interesting microclimates for producing interesting grapes which would have interesting properties. And then perhaps all the unique brandies which might be created from these wines.
A no-Islam timeline seems like a wine freak's dream.
Perhaps also more drinks like port might emerge. Any fine restaurant in the United States will have at least one port to offer. How popular could some of these alternate dessert wines become? Certainly the MENA region has many interesting microclimates for producing interesting grapes which would have interesting properties. And then perhaps all the unique brandies which might be created from these wines.
A no-Islam timeline seems like a wine freak's dream.
Here are a couple
Election cake: Back in early American history Election Days could become large community celebrations complete with a sourdough based cake flavored with liquor, spices and fruits. Perhaps in an America where Election Day is seen as more of a holiday Election Cake could remain popular.
Piure: These a strange rock-like creatures from the Chilean coast but if you cut into them you can access their bitter meat. These actually are eaten in OTL but perhaps if a more powerful civilization developed in Patagonia then piure could become something of a delicacy.
Chocolate: I'm pretty sure that the word 'chocolate' comes from the Nahuatl term for 'bitter water', it used to be used for savory recipes in the Aztec Empire. Sure recipes like chicken mole exist but maybe if the Aztecs had managed to defeat the Spanish chocolate could have remained a savory flavoring.
Bananas: It is worth mentioning that every you have eaten is probably descended from one crop grown in Derbyshire, a world with a less powerful British Empire might have seen more diversity in bananas. Alternatively if you prevent the outbreak of Panama Disease then Big Mike bananas could remain the preeminent banana.
Miraculin: This is a rather strange chemical present in the synsepalum dulcificum or West African Sweet Berry, it makes the sour receptors on your tongue temporarily perceive flavors as sweet. In a world where the Miralin company has better luck with the FDA the sweet berry could become a healthy alternative for flavoring foods, as opposed to sugar or high fructose corn syrup.
Mexican cuisine: Much of what has come to be accepted as Mexican cuisine has been, at least in part, altered by the tastes and wants of Americans and Mexican-American communities. If Mexico managed to do better it is possible that much of this sort of cultural mixing would not be as prominent and Mexican food would be more heavily defined by its use of vegetables than of meat and cheese.
Chinese cuisine: One of the old ideas in Chinese cuisine was liu yi shou or holding back a trick or two. This meant that a master chef would keep some of his best recipes away from his apprentice or give the apprentice the recipe but with some spice removed so that it wouldn't taste as good. If masters were less worried about being surpassed by their apprentices perhaps some these recipes and variations could have made it into modern Chinese cooking.
Election cake: Back in early American history Election Days could become large community celebrations complete with a sourdough based cake flavored with liquor, spices and fruits. Perhaps in an America where Election Day is seen as more of a holiday Election Cake could remain popular.
Piure: These a strange rock-like creatures from the Chilean coast but if you cut into them you can access their bitter meat. These actually are eaten in OTL but perhaps if a more powerful civilization developed in Patagonia then piure could become something of a delicacy.
Chocolate: I'm pretty sure that the word 'chocolate' comes from the Nahuatl term for 'bitter water', it used to be used for savory recipes in the Aztec Empire. Sure recipes like chicken mole exist but maybe if the Aztecs had managed to defeat the Spanish chocolate could have remained a savory flavoring.
Bananas: It is worth mentioning that every you have eaten is probably descended from one crop grown in Derbyshire, a world with a less powerful British Empire might have seen more diversity in bananas. Alternatively if you prevent the outbreak of Panama Disease then Big Mike bananas could remain the preeminent banana.
Miraculin: This is a rather strange chemical present in the synsepalum dulcificum or West African Sweet Berry, it makes the sour receptors on your tongue temporarily perceive flavors as sweet. In a world where the Miralin company has better luck with the FDA the sweet berry could become a healthy alternative for flavoring foods, as opposed to sugar or high fructose corn syrup.
Mexican cuisine: Much of what has come to be accepted as Mexican cuisine has been, at least in part, altered by the tastes and wants of Americans and Mexican-American communities. If Mexico managed to do better it is possible that much of this sort of cultural mixing would not be as prominent and Mexican food would be more heavily defined by its use of vegetables than of meat and cheese.
Chinese cuisine: One of the old ideas in Chinese cuisine was liu yi shou or holding back a trick or two. This meant that a master chef would keep some of his best recipes away from his apprentice or give the apprentice the recipe but with some spice removed so that it wouldn't taste as good. If masters were less worried about being surpassed by their apprentices perhaps some these recipes and variations could have made it into modern Chinese cooking.
Cross pollination of zucchini, squashes and pumpkins would give LOTS of fun and tasty varieties.
http://homeguides.sfgate.com/crosspollination-squash-zucchini-76582.html
http://homeguides.sfgate.com/much-s...s-squash-prevent-cross-pollination-79872.html
If cucurbita is introduced to Europe and Asia earlier, maybe we would see greater varieties spread during Europe's medieval warm period through cross pollination. And/or they are more widely cultivated in the Americas. Some of these varieties stick. When the warm period ends, the favorite varieties become more regional as the climate cools. We could be enjoying totally different versions of zucchini, squash and pumpkin in an alternate world. Perhaps in a world where Egyptians, Phoenicians or Romans colonize the Americas? They start farming cucurbit on wide scale and ship the cross pollinated seeds to Europe and Asia.
http://homeguides.sfgate.com/crosspollination-squash-zucchini-76582.html
http://homeguides.sfgate.com/much-s...s-squash-prevent-cross-pollination-79872.html
If cucurbita is introduced to Europe and Asia earlier, maybe we would see greater varieties spread during Europe's medieval warm period through cross pollination. And/or they are more widely cultivated in the Americas. Some of these varieties stick. When the warm period ends, the favorite varieties become more regional as the climate cools. We could be enjoying totally different versions of zucchini, squash and pumpkin in an alternate world. Perhaps in a world where Egyptians, Phoenicians or Romans colonize the Americas? They start farming cucurbit on wide scale and ship the cross pollinated seeds to Europe and Asia.
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oh totally! My aunt and me use 100% cacao chocolate in savory dishes lots of times, and they're always super yummy. Wider use of cacao in recipes would be great to see! Try it next time you make a chili!
I hope we still have chocolate ice cream ITTL though! I think I would cry if there's no Ben and Jerry's chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream.
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I'm not so sure. The Spanish in the Americas used chocolate as a savory drink like the natives too, at least at first. It strikes me that with the Colombian Exchange allowing simultaneous access to sugar and chocolate for the first time in history, someone is eventually going to try combining them, and because people tend to like sweet things more than savory things this combination is probably going to outcompete savory chocolate drinks and foods over time.
That being said, I think you could at least have savory chocolate foods be far more prominent in cuisine, rather than being completely displaced by the pairing of chocolate and sweet flavors as they have been in reality.
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