Alternate Fall of the Roman Empire...

The Sandman

Banned
Here's an idea: what were the chances of part of the Empire refusing to convert to Christianity? Let's say that early Christianity is a little more ineffective at incorporating bits of existing religions to appease the Romans, and sizeable chunks of the Empire decide to rebel against an attempt at forced conversion. To add to the fun, have the Gnostics do better than OTL and become the majority in Egypt, which was IIRC one of the richest bits of the Empire. As a result, the whole thing falls apart into Gnostic, Christian, and pagan bits.
 
Sounds like fun discussion, but for my first TL, I think it would be best to stick with the effects of a single PoD...
 

The Sandman

Banned
Well, some bit of Rome staying pagan might be pretty cool...but good luck to you on your TL! (And maybe I should start writing one...)
 
Thermopylae said:
Succession may be a problem... As I said, Atilla had many sons... How best to kill them off without pissing off the people back in the Hunnic kingdom or Rome...

Maybe if the successor had split his time being raised in Rome and in the Hunnic Kingdom, both sides would see the successor as one of them...

If Atilla/Honoria marriage goes through, and produces an heir, there is the Roman legitimacy - and he can be raised amongst the Huns, but with Roman teachers etc - there is the Hunnic legitimacy. It can definitely be made to work if needed...
 
Prelim timeline:

450 AD - Honoria’s relationship with a chamber servant is discovered by her brother and Emperor of the West Valentinian III. The servant is killed and she betrothed to a nondescript senator, but she offers to Attila the Hun her hand in marriage, with the Western Roman Empire as her dowry.

She then bribes palace guards into killing Valentinian III, being seen as both weak and incompetent by his own guards. A few months later, the throne being occupied by no one, Attila arrives in Rome to press his claim on the crown.

In order to gain support among the Church and Rome’s Christian population, Attila converts to Christianity, and accepts the absolute power of the Papacy. Ultimately, Attila’s claims are accepted, although the means he went about achieving this are shadowy.

On August 15th, 450, Honoria and Attila are wed in holy matrimony, and on that same day he is crowned the Emperor of the West. He has the full support of Flavius Aetius, Rome’s greatest general and important military leader.

Hunnic lands are merged with the lands of the Western Roman Empire, and the client states and vassal states of the Huns officially become client states of the Roman Empire. The name of their overlord country has changed, but its leader has not, and to them Attila is now even more terrifying as both REX HVNNORVM and IMPERATOR OCCIDENTALIS.

451 AD - The historic land and army reforms. The army is entirely remodeled and refashioned to be far more cavalry-centric. With access to the training techniques and breeding stock of the Huns, these reforms go over very well.

The land reforms involve the giving out of land to Hunnic soldiers of the original Hunnic army in Gaul, and the official opening of Hunnic lands to Roman soldiers looking to get land after their twenty year tour of duty. The rich lands attract many young men, especially from the poor classes, and the Roman army is bolstered. Money is (temporarily at least) not an issue, because these soldiers will be paid in land, not sesterces.

Attila begins to revitalize the city of Rome using gold from his own war chest.

453 AD - Attila and Honoria bear a son, named Equtius. He is sent frequently to Attila’s relatives, feeling that Equitius should be raised in the style a Hunnic booy should, but with a Roman education and half his time spent among the people of Rome.

455 AD - Vandals do not invade Italy, for fear of Attila. They invest their time in piracy and terrorizing the high seas. This is a small problem though, compared to what they did OTL in 455: the sacking of Rome

Ostrogothic rebellion in Hunnic lands results in the near-genocide of the Ostrogoths. Their lands are emptied, and Attila orders that this land be set aside for use of the Roman soldiers, the first wave of which would be eligible for their retirement pay in 471. During the ensuing battles, Ellakh, Dengizich and Ernakh, Attila’s three sons with any degree of political and military clout, are killed. Equitius is named heir.

457 - 463 AD - Realizing the economic decay of the Roman Empire which he inherited, Attila realizes that a new influx of slaves and plunder is necessary. He turns to the Germanic tribes (Franks, Saxons, etc.), who, because they have been unable to invade Gaul lest incurring the wrath of Attila, had resorted to infighting amongst themselves.

Using the frequent raids of Romano-Britain as a cassus belli, Attila officially declares war on the Saxon tribes in 457. He and Flavius Aetius, his close friend, cross the Rhine with a mixed Hunnic/Roman force (along with a number of Frankish and Visigothic foederatii), and orders the camp not be segregated, encouraging the forging of bonds of comradeship between the two. Realizing that he should endear the army to his successor, the young Equitius is periodically brought on campaign.

The Saxons that weren’t in Romano-Britain are utterly vanquished by the end of 459, and the new influx of slaves immediately bolsters the Roman economy, as Saxons are put in shackles by the thousands. The lands of the Saxons were nearly emptied, and once again were set aside for use by the soldiers who would later retire. Although he encouraged some of his Huns looking for good farmland closer to the influence of Rome to settle there beforehand to maintain order and upkeep the few remaining towns, farms and villages.

From 459 to 463 Attila continued to subdue the tribes of Germania to the Elbe, finding one reason or another to declare war. By 463 the population of Germania up to the Elbe is estimated by some scholars to be only 20% of what it was at the end of 456 AD, the population having been killed or enslaved and moved far from their homeland.

Notably, during the campaign Ricimer, the magister militum, died.

460 - 462 AD - The Suebii attack the city of Lugo. Attila uses this as an excuse to go to war, and declares the Suebii’s foederate status null and void. He primarily uses Langobardi (Lombard) troops, with a good portion of Romans. The Lombards are used as shock troops, and about half of those Lombards who campaigned there died. Many historians think that Attila did this to intentionally weaken them. No Suebii noble is spared the sword, and all are put to death. Most Suebii are executed, the rest are used as slaves in that region. Again, Galaecia was added to the list of locations for resettlement. By 462 AD the Suebii basically cease to exist.

464 AD - The death of Flavius Aetius. Attila uses more of his personal war chest to create a grand mausoleum for him in in his birth place at Dorostolus (OTL modern day Silistra, Bulgaria). For his conquest of Germania to the Elbe, Attila is given the title “Germanicus”. For conquering Germania to the Elbe, giving Aetius a lavish Christian burial, and for helping to spread Christianity among the Huns, Attila is granted by Pope Hilarius the title “Beloved of God”.

465 AD - Theodoric demands that for his loyal service to Rome he is given the Septimania region of Gaul. Attila refuses, and Theodoric declares war on the Western Roman Empire. The Visigoths make a terrible mistake. The Roman army is in peak condition at this time, bolstered by the new cavalry-centric reforms and the Hunnic army.

465 - 468 AD - The war is fought between the Romans/Huns/Foederates and the Visigoths. While gaining ground in Gaul briefly, his army is overextended as Franks, Lombards, Huns and Romans enclose themselves around Visigothic territory. On March 8th, 468 Theodoric is slain in the Battle of Burdigala. Just three months later, under serious pressure, his heir Thorismund renounces all claim to the Visigothic crown. This event marks the end of the Visigothic people as a foederate nation. Most Visigoths are slain or put in shackles, and sent as slaves to Hunnic lands. As of this moment the only real foederate nations left are the Burgundians, Lombards, and Franks. Aquitania is added to the land reforms project.

469 - 470 AD - Consolidation of the Empire. Attila pours his personal funding into economic revival all along the empire. He rebuilds the aqueducts and roads, and adopts a new economic policy.

By this time there was far more land than was needed to grant the army retirment pay for a LONG TIME to come, given that the economic policy encompassed many parts of Dacia, Galaecia, Germania, and Aquitania. So he gave the urban poor of Rome, Ravenna, and Neapoli half the land in Germania to make them useful, productive citizens. He mandated that this be a process of some twenty years so that the newly-conquered lands aren’t simply flooded by hordes of urban poor.

For his defense of the empire against the Visigoths and his economic revival policies, he is granted the title “Magnus” (“the Great”) by the Senate.

471 AD - Attila the Hun, Magnus Germanicus Augustus, Beloved of God, Emperor of the West, dies. His final two decrees are that the capital of the Empire be moved from Ravenna back to Rome, now greatly revitalized, and that his heir is his son Equitius.

Equitius ascends the throne later that year, and begins immediately the continuation of his father’s work.

________________________________

So, what do you think. Plausible, or implausible?
 
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Enjoyable either way. But I wonder why Atilla would not go for the Vandal kingdom in North Africa - or is it a job for his son to do?

One other issue - "Augustus" was the title of a senior Emperor attained upon ascention - Atilla would have gotten it the moment he got crowned.

Alternatively though, we can have Valentinian III not be killed, but accede to Atilla's demands, and promise him that any son born of Atilla and Honoria would be the heir - thus Atilla will not be the Emperor, but he will be given a lesser title of "Caesar", and will be in fact the commander of the armies. As soon as Atilla has a son by Honoria, Valentinian's life no longer makes sense - thus Valentinian can be killed promptly afterwards, and it can be made seem like an accident - after all, Valentinian OTL was apparently a womanizer, and his death was brought up by a senator whose wife the Emperor either had an affair with, or raped - the history is not quite clear on that. It makes a perfect pretext for a murder as well (jealous husband/brother/cousin etc).
 
midgardmetal said:
Enjoyable either way. But I wonder why Atilla would not go for the Vandal kingdom in North Africa - or is it a job for his son to do?

Young Equitius has got to have some sort of outlet! ;)

One other issue - "Augustus" was the title of a senior Emperor attained upon ascention - Atilla would have gotten it the moment he got crowned.

D'oh! Right, I'll probably just change that to "Germanicus" or something, to indicate his conquest of the Germans...

Alternatively though, we can have Valentinian III not be killed, but accede to Atilla's demands, and promise him that any son born of Atilla and Honoria would be the heir - thus Atilla will not be the Emperor, but he will be given a lesser title of "Caesar", and will be in fact the commander of the armies. As soon as Atilla has a son by Honoria, Valentinian's life no longer makes sense - thus Valentinian can be killed promptly afterwards, and it can be made seem like an accident - after all, Valentinian OTL was apparently a womanizer, and his death was brought up by a senator whose wife the Emperor either had an affair with, or raped - the history is not quite clear on that. It makes a perfect pretext for a murder as well (jealous husband/brother/cousin etc).

Your idea is SO cool! :eek: Problem is, I think all these land reforms and whatnot would require Attila to be in power and not incompetent Valentinian...

I hope you got a little kick out of Attila being named "beloved of God". I thought that was pretty clever giving that title to the Scourge of God. :D
 
Thermopylae said:
Young Equitius has got to have some sort of outlet! ;)



D'oh! Right, I'll probably just change that to "Germanicus" or something, to indicate his conquest of the Germans...



Your idea is SO cool! :eek: Problem is, I think all these land reforms and whatnot would require Attila to be in power and not incompetent Valentinian...

I hope you got a little kick out of Attila being named "beloved of God". I thought that was pretty clever giving that title to the Scourge of God. :D

I think Atilla could still be the "power behind the throne" - with a rank of Caesar (i.e. Junior Emperor), he can get the rank of Augustus upon Valentinian's death, or "abdication" (forced as soon as Atilla's son by Honoria is born) - all policy is done via Atilla and Aetius anyway. The "beloved of God" was definitely a great little pun too!

Please do keep going!
 
midgardmetal said:
Atilla could have become an Emperor for two reasons - unlike the Ostrogoths, he would not have been Arian (which was the reason for Germanic puppet-masters during the "shadow Emperors" period - most were of heretical denomination of Christianity, and thus ineligible), and if he was able to convert to proper Catholicism, I think the Romans were pragmatic enough to give him the crown. After all, they would reason, what has the Theodosian line done for them - and if Atilla and Honoria have a son, he would be technically a legitimate heir to the Empire - AFAIK Valentinian III was childless? And if he gets the Pope on his side, and manages to get full Papal support (given that Leo the Great was, AFAIK, quite influential in the day) on one side, and frightening military machine under his control on the other side - I doubt any would dare to oppose him, not even the Eastern Empire.
The religious angle is meaningless. Religious orthodoxy wasn't a requirement. After all, the empire had only tolerated the religion openly for about a century at this point. Several emperors weren't Catholic. Julian wasn't even Christian. The Romans were very picky about the legality of, well, everything. Why do you think all our legal phrases are in latin? :cool: I hate to be the spoilsport, but atilla cannot be emperor and wouldn't try.
 
DominusNovus said:
I hate to be the spoilsport, but atilla cannot be emperor and wouldn't try.

I believe in OTL he did, my good man. That's why he invaded the West in the first place. :cool:

Either way, I'm continuing this. I want to see how long this empire could feasibly live, and then observe the effects of its delayed fall.

You alreayd have some interesting linguistic and cultural changes that depart our TL. Basically all of Hungary/Slovakia is now going to be greatly influenced by the Romance Languages. Depending on where the Gothic and German slaves went predominately, there's another strange departure...
 
I think it´s very cool, but my this is my comment.

There are two problems I see:

Atilla had one son already which was his favourite. Apparently he had been predicted by a soothsayer to be the one to restore his empire. This favourite might have been the one Attila would want to make emperor in stead of his son with Honoria. (This is according to some roman diplomats that visited his court).

Attila probably had a weak heart, or some ailment, unless it was poisoning. But still he died shortly after he invaded the Roman empire, and he was already old at that time.
 
Fabilius said:
Atilla had one son already which was his favourite. Apparently he had been predicted by a soothsayer to be the one to restore his empire. This favourite might have been the one Attila would want to make emperor in stead of his son with Honoria. (This is according to some roman diplomats that visited his court).

That was Ellakh, and he died during the Ostrogothic uprising.

Attila probably had a weak heart, or some ailment, unless it was poisoning. But still he died shortly after he invaded the Roman empire, and he was already old at that time.

I'm going on that it was poisoning. I just added eighteen years on to his life, and he would die at the ripe old age of 62. Not implausible.
 
Continued... ( I may just put this in a new thread)

471 AD - Attila the Hun, Magnus Augustus, Beloved of God, Emperor of the West dies. His final two decrees are that the capital of the Empire be moved from Ravenna back to Rome, now greatly revitalized, and that his heir is his son Equitius.

Equitius is crowned IMPERATOR OCCIDENTALIS ET REGNVM HVNNORVM later that year.

The first wave of soldiers retiring to the lands set aside by Attila. This results in a great movement to the fertile lands in the Pannonian plain of Romanized peoples, bringing with them Roman ideas and Roman innovation. This begins the cultural flourishing of the area. New labor ideas emerge here, as the new farmers look to increase their yield. These however wouldn’t come to fruition until the next few decades.

472 AD - Immediately Equitius’ authority is challenged by one of the client states, that client state being the Gepid tribe. They were crushed and slaughtered to the last man. The rough lifestyle of the Huns which he spent much time living had impressed upon him the need to meet your enemies with utmost hatred, and your friends with utmost generosity. The Gepids weren’t just enemies, they were traitors.

474 AD - The Emperor Zeno’s envoy to the Vandals results in a peace agreement with the Vandal kingdom between them and the two Empires. The piracy ends, and trade in the Mediterranean flourishes, as routes from Europe to Africa open up once again.

Honoria, wife of Attila and mother of the emperor, dies.

475 - 479 AD - Equitius commits five legions to the destruction of the Saxons and Angles that occupied the eastern portion of Britannia. The legions end up killing king Hengest of the Saxon kingdom of Kent and retaking land from Dover to East Anglia. The Saxons are no more.

The Roman legions, however, after four years of fighting, hadn’t the power to destroy the Angles lodged in the far north. That would be left for another day, but Equitius would forever be remembered by the Britons as “the Good Emperor”.

475 AD - Equitius weds the daughter of an influential Hun. That same year they bear a son named Flavius, named after Flavius Aetius. He, like his father, sends him to spend much of his time among the Huns to ensure that he has a proper “Romano-Hunnic” upbringing.

476 AD - The Senate votes to erect a monument to Attila in the Forum. It is a statue of Attila on horseback with the traditional Hun reflex bow drawn while wearing the laurel wreath.

481 AD - Clovis I ascends the throne of the Franks. He is ambitious king, and Equitius does well to keep an eye on him, wondering if he sees the Roman failure to destroy the Angles as a sign of weakness.

482 AD - The retired soldiers in the Pannonian Plain, had for over a decade now adopted a sort of indentured servitude mode of labor for their newly-acquired farms. The movement of urban poor in Italy to Germany had been a long, twenty year process, and at this stage was still only about halfway through. It was popular at this time for the newly-landed soldiers to offer to urban poor in Italy an alternative: work my farm, I give you not only a share of my land but also protection from bandits and whatever the north brings. Thus began the development of a sort of manorial system in the Roman Empire.

486 AD - The fears of Clovis are well-grounded, when Clovis invades the Soissons region of the Roman Empire. He begins rapid expansion in northern France, however he soon finds resistance.

486 - 489 AD - The campaign against the Franks. The campaign was long and bloody, the Franks being at this point very “Romanized”, and not the disorganized barbarian horde it was in generations past.

But ultimately, Clovis is defeated, and he must flee the continent. Thousands of Franks flee with Clovis to Britain. Clovis ends up never being pursued, and sets up his new Frankish kingdom in the lands that just years before were occupied by Saxons and Angles, centered around Kent and later Londinium.

Clovis’ charismatic nature and his control of his own people leads him to establish a very strong kingdom in this region. For the rest of his career Equitius saw that as his greatest failing. While the campaign was successful, and while many new slaves and tons of riches were plundered, he felt it was a failing on his part to truly destroy his enemy. But the way he ultimately saw it, he was rid of Clovis and the Franks, and that territory could now be used to the benefit of the Huns and the Romans.

494 AD - Pope Gelasius delineates the relationship between Church and State, saying that while they are separate, they are to assist each other.

496 - 497 AD - The weakened Vandal kingdom is the target for a short yet profitable war for Equitius. By March of 497, the Vandal kingdom is destroyed, and the province of Africa is readmitted as a province.

Equitius is granted the cognomen “Vandalicus” for his defeat of the Vandals.

500 AD - The Britons score a major victory against the Angles at Mons Badonicus (Badon Hill), expelling them from the isle of Britain. The British isles are now divided between the Celts, the Romano-British, and the Franks.
_________________________

What do you all think? I'm torn. I won't have Britain divided forever. Do you all want to see a celtic Britain, Roman-successor-nation Britain, or... a Frankish Britain?!?! :eek:
 
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Say that it falls the way it did but then the conspiracy theory blame the vandals or the huns:D
 
I think a war between Western and Eastern Rome wouldn't be impossible... IOTL they didn't help each other, but played all dirty tricks short of real war.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
DominusNovus said:
The religious angle is meaningless. Religious orthodoxy wasn't a requirement. After all, the empire had only tolerated the religion openly for about a century at this point. Several emperors weren't Catholic. Julian wasn't even Christian. The Romans were very picky about the legality of, well, everything. Why do you think all our legal phrases are in latin? :cool: I hate to be the spoilsport, but atilla cannot be emperor and wouldn't try.

Anyone who could get enough soldiers behind him could be Emperor and many frequently were. The Romans loved legality so much largely because it was so useful in formalising relationships of naked power where the military was concerned.
 
Max Sinister said:
I think a war between Western and Eastern Rome wouldn't be impossible... IOTL they didn't help each other, but played all dirty tricks short of real war.

No, I don't think so. The Eastern Romans were scared ****less of Attila, and now that he wields the Western Roman army they'd basically be his gopher boys...

I'm making the timeline now. When I hit 550 AD I'll put it in a thread of its own...
 
Question:

Let's say Belisarius is too far away from Constantinople to assist Justinian. Would the Nika Revolts have succeeded? Mundus, the magister militum, was there with his Heruli mercenaries, and he OTL did play a major role in the suppression of the revolt. But I'm curious to know what you think. This is pretty major...
 
Thermopylae said:
I believe in OTL he did, my good man. That's why he invaded the West in the first place. :cool: .
No, he didn't. He invaded the west because he wanted Gaul. The dowry of Honoria was half the Western Empire, not the imperial crown. I can't find the article on friesian.com that backs this up, but you'll just have to take my word on it, Atilla would not try to become Emperor.
 
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