Alternate Estates

As we know the feudal system, better known through the Ancien Regime, created a threefold division of the society into Priests, Nobles and Burgers (this division is according to the IndoEuropean division of the society.

Depending on who rules, you get to see Theocratic, Feudal (monarchic) and Republican regimes
My question is, what could be alternative estates of the society? If such a new estare would be in power, how would the government/society function?
 
Actually, it was Priests, Nobles and Commoners. The system you're describing was used in Scotland, not France.

Sweden had a four-estate system, which separated rural commoners and urban burgers into different estates.
 
Also, the idea that the division of society into nobles, priests and commoners reflects some ancient Indo-European division is, to put it politely, dubious. Even if the Indo-Europeans themselves had such a division (and the evidence for this is often quite tenuous*), many of the intermediate societies didn't,** and it's more likely that the mediaeval system (which wasn't universal anyway***) was an independent development and had nothing to do with Indo-Europeans.

* For example, Dumezil, one of the main historical proponents of the theory, used the Roman legend that Romulus had established three tribes as evidence. Three divisions of society, three tribes, QED. Except that none of the sources give any indication that these tribes were based on occupation or social class, and the fact that each of them was supposedly responsible for providing soldiers rather suggests otherwise.

** E.g., the Romans didn't (or at least didn't originally) have separate classes of warriors, priests, and farmers. Indeed, their ideal was that of the citizen-soldier, a farmer who took up arms in times of war and then returned to his plough once the fighting was over. Priests, meanwhile, were elected like politicians, and indeed lots of politicians were priests as well (Julius Caesar was pontifex maximus, for example). Similarly, the classical Greeks didn't have a separate warrior class, but drew their soldiers from the ranks of the wealthy farmers who fought as heavy infantry militia.

*** As AE said, the Swedes had a four-estate system. England, meanwhile, had a two-estate system, Lords and Commons, which is still reflected to this day in the organisation of the British Parliament.
 
Actually, it was Priests, Nobles and Commoners. The system you're describing was used in Scotland, not France.

Sweden had a four-estate system, which separated rural commoners and urban burgers into different estates.
I see that my initial proposition was not as accurate as it could have been. Thus in some parts of Europe, you had :
  • Priests
  • Nobles
  • Merchants/Burghers
  • Peasants
In others the first two were put together and the second two also, or variations thereof.
Who else could somehow join the list?
 
You could have something emerge with distict... Untouchable class if you finagled things just right with the Jewish Community. Say,have the Vatican early on lay down a very specific list of what professions Jews are allowed practice and having those represented separately to reflect their "tainted" nature?
 
You could have something emerge with distict... Untouchable class if you finagled things just right with the Jewish Community. Say,have the Vatican early on lay down a very specific list of what professions Jews are allowed practice and having those represented separately to reflect their "tainted" nature?
Which would implicitly be deplored of any political influence should I be right?
 
You could have something emerge with distict... Untouchable class if you finagled things just right with the Jewish Community. Say,have the Vatican early on lay down a very specific list of what professions Jews are allowed practice and having those represented separately to reflect their "tainted" nature?

Untouchables did exist in Europe, as example in Denmark, we had the Rakkers, who worked unclean jobs (disposing animal carcasses, dealing with garbage and working as executors) and they often ate animals seen as unclean, as example horse meat.
 
Not sure if this would be workable in practice, but possibly dividing the Burgers into Merchants and Artisans/Guildsmen. One other possibility might be dividing peasants into farmers and fishermen, again not sure of workability in practice. Still idea is different enough that there would be differences in duties/obligations and taxation
 
Maybe splitting the nobles into the "greater nobility" - viscounts and above - and "lesser nobility" - barons and bannerettes?

Alternatively, if you have a lot of royal cadet branches, have a separate estate for the "princes of the blood" (or whatever you want to call them).
 
Maybe splitting the nobles into the "greater nobility" - viscounts and above - and "lesser nobility" - barons and bannerettes?

Alternatively, if you have a lot of royal cadet branches, have a separate estate for the "princes of the blood" (or whatever you want to call them).

It already existed in Germany, where the nobility was split between princes and knights. The Knights was also split between knights who answered directly to the princes who owned the territory their estates lay on and knights with independent territories, who answered directly to the emperor. The latter was called Imperial Knights.
 
Maybe splitting the nobles into the "greater nobility" - viscounts and above - and "lesser nobility" - barons and bannerettes?

Alternatively, if you have a lot of royal cadet branches, have a separate estate for the "princes of the blood" (or whatever you want to call them).
This seems the most likely option to me. Historically we can see a lot of places with distinctions between upper and lower forms of nobility, with the specifics varying between circumstances. IIRC Poland in particular is known for having a remarkably large lower nobility and for the conflict for power and wealth between the upper and lower nobility. That said I don't believe the distinction was ever formalized in the way being discussed here, but it doesn't seem like too much of a leap for it to happen. There was also the landed gentry in Britain, which to my understanding primarily referred to wealthy but untitled landowners but could include some of the lower ranks of the titled nobility. I don't think it would be too much of an exaggeration to call the landed gentry Britain's dominant political class for much of the early modern period. There's also the hidalgos in Spain who are again a large bottom tier of the nobility and often, though by no means necessarily, no wealthier than the peasantry. While the exact use and meaning of the term shifted, hidalgos were defintiely members of the nobility even if they weren't wealthy or powerful.

So it seems like this distinction existed reasonably frequently in practice but wasn't to my knowledge ever formalized.
 
Splitting the burgers into merchants/bankers and craftsmen/guildsmen shouldn't be hard, particularly if there's a conflict between the former favoring free trade and the latter protectionism.

Alternatively, in a society where the nobility has moved from representing soldiers to landowners particularly in the Renaissance period, it might be possible for the Condottieri/Streltsiy/etc. to become their own estate.
 
In regards to your question of what kind of governments can come out of these alternative regimes:

Rural Peasants:
-the peasant republic (seen in the Frisian counties prior to their unification as well as Dithmarschen)
-do tribal areas count? Most were ruled by a chief who often belonged to a noble class or family within their society, but their wealth tended to pale in comparison to our typical image of the noble estate; tribes and nomads might be considered their own estate in certain areas, and so the creation of tribal rule areas might be a separate estate, like the Cossacks.

Urban Burghers:
-the free cities of the HRE can count since it was their power that largely controlled their city, overthrowing the powers of the surrounding feudal lords and bishops; this one might lean more towards the guilds and craftsmen provided they keep the merchants in check half of the estate
-merchant republics like Venice and Genoa, led by merchants predominantly if they can keep the crafts guilds at bay, so whatever they are trading better be incredibly profitable and unable to be produced in the city/republic, like spices

Lower and Upper Nobility, while they can be counted as separate estates, they would probably tend towards the same types of governing styles:
-feudal monarchy in which one person rules, pretty much how most of Europe was
-noble/oligarchic republic in which nobles have their say in a relatively democratic governing style, like Florence.

Soldier/Warrior Class, if separated from the others:
-perhaps more of a military junta style of ruling?

Now, as for some hypothetical estates:
-A naval estate, as a counterpart to the soldier/warrior estate idea. Perhaps developing in place of or alongside a merchant class.
-An educational estate in areas where it is secularized from the church. I could only think of one place where this would develop early on, and this would be Bologna, home to the University of Bologna. The estate itself would fluctuate in membership due to attendance from year to year, but could wield collective bargaining power in pursuing education, research, and the arts. Probably the smallest of all estates in any location besides university towns.
 
It already existed in Germany, where the nobility was split between princes and knights. The Knights was also split between knights who answered directly to the princes who owned the territory their estates lay on and knights with independent territories, who answered directly to the emperor. The latter was called Imperial Knights.


Oh mine goht... the Holy Roman Imperial system catching on could create a beuracraric nightmare.
 
What about a Bureaucrat estate in a Europe where Imperial Rome adopts a governancr structure more like Imperial China but still collapses. The Bureaucrats would include lawyers, mathematicians/accountants, surveyors/cartographers, civil engineers, bankers/economists, etc. but would be treated as part of a Europe-wide Bureaucratic hierachy rather than being independent professionals. This hierarchy would be like the Catholic Church in that it would be a Europe-wide institution (descended from an Imperial Roman bureaucracy) that would spread across multiple states, but individual Bureaucrats could come to prominence within the court of their local King. Another way to think about this is to think of it as sort of being a Europe-wide guild for the educated professions, but where the professionals see themselves as distinct from the tradesmen (because they are educated and don't work with their hands), merchants (because they serve "the empire" rather than their own wallet) priests (because they are secular), or nobles (because they are not and never have been military leaders). Ant thoughts? Is this completely implausible?
 
Untouchables did exist in Europe, as example in Denmark, we had the Rakkers, who worked unclean jobs (disposing animal carcasses, dealing with garbage and working as executors) and they often ate animals seen as unclean, as example horse meat.
On a similar note, the Cagots of France.
 
@Daedalus
The "Peasant Republic" looks quite interesting.It appears that it evolved from the tribal organization, yet maintained some form of social equality.
An academocracy or ltes call it, catedrocracy (ruled by professors) is an interesting idea. With a place governed by a university, you could have each professor being minister of his area of expertise, while the Rector would be head of State
As you mentioned a naval government... I first came to think of pirates.
What about a Bureaucrat estate in a Europe where Imperial Rome adopts a governancr structure more like Imperial China but still collapses. The Bureaucrats would include lawyers, mathematicians/accountants, surveyors/cartographers, civil engineers, bankers/economists, etc. but would be treated as part of a Europe-wide Bureaucratic hierachy rather than being independent professionals. This hierarchy would be like the Catholic Church in that it would be a Europe-wide institution (descended from an Imperial Roman bureaucracy) that would spread across multiple states, but individual Bureaucrats could come to prominence within the court of their local King. Another way to think about this is to think of it as sort of being a Europe-wide guild for the educated professions, but where the professionals see themselves as distinct from the tradesmen (because they are educated and don't work with their hands), merchants (because they serve "the empire" rather than their own wallet) priests (because they are secular), or nobles (because they are not and never have been military leaders). Ant thoughts? Is this completely implausible?
A bureaucracy looks interesting, yet I wonder how the HoS would be selected.
 
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