Alternate D-Day locations?

it was still a logistical bottleneck, however long it was open for :)

Operation Dragoon went much more succesfully and quickly, than the bloody and protracted attempts to break out of the Normandy beachhead

Dragoon began on August 15th 1944, Lyon fell eighteen days later

if they Allies had concentrated their efforts in the South, who knows what might have been possible? :confused:

But these results were only possible with Germans being bled dry in Normandy. I think Southern France offers even better defensive grounds than North western part? Wherever first invasion took place, it would be met with desperate German defense and the second one would meet little if any defense.
 

Cook

Banned
Operation Dragoon went much more succesfully and quickly, than the bloody and protracted attempts to break out of the Normandy beachhead
Anvil/Dragoon was successful because of Overlord; Southern France had been stripped of almost all of its German occupiers by the time the landings took place there, they’d all been sent north to fight in Normandy. All the landings in Southern France did was take men away from Italy just when the allies had built up a useful numerical superiority over the Germans there.
 
But these results were only possible with Germans being bled dry in Normandy. I think Southern France offers even better defensive grounds than North western part?


Possibly, but tanks based in the Pas-de-Calais would take ages to travel south, and could be interdicted by air attacks before they even got there - I've no information on the Wehrmacht order of battle in Zone Sud, but I can't imagine it was as fearsome a prospect as it was in Zone Nord

By the time Wehrmacht and SS tanks divisions got there en masse, an Allied beachhead would be well established anyway

It's just a thought really, why kick down the front door when you can sneak round the back?
 
it was still a logistical bottleneck, however long it was open for :)

And trying to supply the entire invasion force through southern france wouldnt have been a massive bottleneck of staggering proportions?

As it was they suffered major problems with fuel supplies, stiffer resistance (which it likely would have been without Nazis forces being moved north to counter the invasion there) would only have made that problem worse.

There is also no certainty that the Nazis wouldnt destroy the ports this time around. While they didnt in OTL, this time it would be clear that the invasion is the real deal, whereas in OTL the allies were already ashore and rampaging through France. The priority could easily have been to do as much damage as possible rather than bugging out before being cut off.

So the destruction of a few southern ports was a much lower priority than it would here. And without those ports the invasion would be doomed to fail. At least with Normandy they had the mulberrys to use instead, I dont know if it would be at all possible to have the same in southern france!

No, far better to go into Normandy first, it maximises all your advantages and minimises the risks as much as possible, a direct attempt into southern france first completely flips that around.
Once the main invasion is successful, then you can use the valuable experience you have gained launching this kind of amphibious operation and do it again elsewhere as the overal strategic situation has radically changed in your favour.
 
Possibly, but tanks based in the Pas-de-Calais would take ages to travel south, and could be interdicted by air attacks before they even got there - I've no information on the Wehrmacht order of battle in Zone Sud, but I can't imagine it was as fearsome a prospect as it was in Zone Nord

By the time Wehrmacht and SS tanks divisions got there en masse, an Allied beachhead would be well established anyway

It's just a thought really, why kick down the front door when you can sneak round the back?

The N-S transport network was intact, one of the reasons why the Med ports became major supply ports once capstured, and given the range, it couldn't be hit as much as it was for Normandy.
 
Possibly, but tanks based in the Pas-de-Calais would take ages to travel south, and could be interdicted by air attacks before they even got there - I've no information on the Wehrmacht order of battle in Zone Sud, but I can't imagine it was as fearsome a prospect as it was in Zone Nord

They would still have to face them as they advance north, unless Allies decide to cut through Switzerland on their way to Germany.

It's just a thought really, why kick down the front door when you can sneak round the back?

Because it is easier to supply the invasion from Britain, where there was manpower readily available, supplies could be shipped across mere 40-60 kilometers of water, air support could be based in huge airbases in Britain, at one third the distance it would take for air force to support the landing in Southern France.

BTW, you do realise you are second guessing military experts that took better part of two years to plan the invasion, who took accurate reconnaissance photos of the terrain on ALL possible invasion sites and even sent troops to test some of them for real, don't you? I really think they would have decided to go for 'easier' invasion if they had estimated it was really easier.

I think it was simply impossible to form Dragoon/Anvil invasion in the same force as Overlord. Bases in Med were totally inadequate for this task, they were too far away from main Allied bases and their route was roundabout to the main objective.
 
Probably ASB, but:

Denmark!!!
I've always liked that idea since once the allied navies punch thru the straights they have the whole Baltic ocean open to them and then they could have landed forces anywhere in the northern coast of Germany. Also once the armies get going they could drive down thru Denmark right into Germany.

The Americans in the Pacific campaign had gained alot of experience in island hopping so they need not be close to a major base. They would have to bring in extra aircraft carriers from the Pacific to provide air cover but it isnt impossible. Besides by 1944 German air defenses were not that strong anyways.

It would be bloody in the beginning but what better way to bring the fight to the enemy than fighting on their home turf by going right into Germany. If we were going to fight over territory and have civilians in the crosshairs, why not make it German soil and German civilians instead of having to fight thru France and the Netherlands where we ended up destroying many homes and property.
 
I've always liked that idea since once the allied navies punch thru the straights they have the whole Baltic ocean open to them and then they could have landed forces anywhere in the northern coast of Germany. Also once the armies get going they could drive down thru Denmark right into Germany.

The Americans in the Pacific campaign had gained alot of experience in island hopping so they need not be close to a major base. They would have to bring in extra aircraft carriers from the Pacific to provide air cover but it isnt impossible. Besides by 1944 German air defenses were not that strong anyways.

It would be bloody in the beginning but what better way to bring the fight to the enemy than fighting on their home turf by going right into Germany. If we were going to fight over territory and have civilians in the crosshairs, why not make it German soil and German civilians instead of having to fight thru France and the Netherlands where we ended up destroying many homes and property.
Bad idea since naval air + long range air support from Eastern England (500km away) would still be significantly less than what was available over Normandy (only 150-160km from Southern England). The invasion fleet will be underway thrice as long, which also goes for the supplies after the landing. The Germans OTOH, are sitting right next to their war factories...

EDIT: Almost forgot to add that island hopping was against isolated garrisons, not an entire country!
 
The Americans in the Pacific campaign had gained alot of experience in island hopping so they need not be close to a major base. They would have to bring in extra aircraft carriers from the Pacific to provide air cover but it isnt impossible. Besides by 1944 German air defenses were not that strong anyways
That's island hopping. However, you are in effect talking about using carrier based air power against continental land bases. The advantage per se goes to the land bases because they are less vulnerable than carriers to the point of merely using flat areas of grass for some planes.

Admittedly in The Big One by Stuart Slade, the US Navy is whipping the Luftwaffe. However, the Americans aren't trying to defend a beachhead. Therefore the carriers can move in, level and burn part of Occupied France then fall back out of range of land. A fleet could not do that in the Baltic because it does not have the room to manouvre.
 
How about two stage D-Day?

Stage 1 - liberation of Norway autumn/winter '43 and presuring Sweden into the allied camp during winter 43/44

Stage 2 - have options to land in either east Prussia to "link up" with the Soviets, Danmark or France stretching German resources even further.
 
What about a thrust in the south to draw the Germans out and then strike somewhere in the North like Belgium?
 
What about a thrust in the south to draw the Germans out and then strike somewhere in the North like Belgium?

But Allies had a perfect subterfuge operation going on. Fortitude South and North really convinced Germans Normandy was the diversive strike they needed to ignore and save reserves for later 'main strike'. There was no need for a real diversion, when virtual one was working great and Allies knew it was working great.
 
What about this:
  • Maintain the Status Quo in Italy.
  • Shift Pacific landing craft to Europe.
  • Invade Southern France May 15.
  • Invade Normandy as scheduled.
 
I've always liked that idea since once the allied navies punch thru the straights they have the whole Baltic ocean open to them and then they could have landed forces anywhere in the northern coast of Germany. Also once the armies get going they could drive down thru Denmark right into Germany.

That is even a worse idea then the Frisian islands which have been discussed enough(please not again)

Jutland(also Schleswig) area poses a huge bottleneck the Germans can use to concentrate defenses. It would be a bloodbath
 
Would there be the option of shipping stuff to Finland via Murmansk, and pushing into Norway (a long shot I'll admit)?
 
Fighter cover

One of the things that made D Day unstopable was massive fighter cover. The Allies would be risking a lot if they went out of Spitfire range. They could strech it a bit to P47 range, but that would leave the RAF out of it and bring a lot more german fighters to the fight. The Mustangs were there in June 44, but not in the overwheelming numbers needed.
That rules out anything much east. The one choice I would be interested in discussing is a landing in the Somme estuary. Dieppe is not a big harbour, but that opens up the possibility of an eastwards strike more and could be a good compromise btw 1st day casualties and breaking out casualties. It also maximizes fighter cover. (and critically Fighter Bomber action)
 
Bad idea since naval air + long range air support from Eastern England (500km away) would still be significantly less than what was available over Normandy (only 150-160km from Southern England). The invasion fleet will be underway thrice as long, which also goes for the supplies after the landing. The Germans OTOH, are sitting right next to their war factories...

EDIT: Almost forgot to add that island hopping was against isolated garrisons, not an entire country!
I disagree. Partly because your not talking just a couple of carriers. The combined US and British navies could have put around 20 aircraft carriers into service giving them around 1,000 aircraft which is a pretty big CAP. Long range aircraft flying from the UK like the P51 Mustang and the P38 Lightning, could reach Into Germany and would have had no problem covering many bases located in France. Also once they take Jutland or the rest of Denmark they could have used those land bases.
 
That is even a worse idea then the Frisian islands which have been discussed enough(please not again)

Jutland(also Schleswig) area poses a huge bottleneck the Germans can use to concentrate defenses. It would be a bloodbath
Yes they could concentrate defenses but alot of Jutland was in range of heavy offshore guns of the navy which could fire shells 15 miles inland.
 
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