Alternate CSA president

[Treppe]

Okay this has been probably sorted out here for a hundred times but I just need a quick answer who could become president of the CSA in 1861 instead of Jeff Davis?

The names would be sufficient, but it would nice if you could tell me if they had a real chance during the negotiations and if you think thy might have been the better chice (to win the war).

 

[Treppe]

What ab Richard Toombs?

 

[usertron2020]

Okay this has been probably sorted out here for a hundred times but I just need a quick answer who could become president of the CSA in 1861 instead of Jeff Davis?

The names would be sufficient, but it would nice if you could tell me if they had a real chance during the negotiations and if you think thy might have been the better chice (to win the war).

Robert A. Toombs, Senator from Georgia, perhaps the #1 fire-eater in the US Senate. Openly favored full restoration of the Slave Trade. Actually, legalization since slave ships were arriving in the South till Lee surrendered. OTL, he tried for the job of POTCSA but was beaten out by Davis. He had to settle for being Davis' first Secretary of State. Stephens, his fellow Georgian, got the VP. No Davis? Pathway is open for Toombs, who was an outstanding orator in his day. No Lincoln, but who was? He may well have been able to rally the Confederate nation in a way Davis never could. He might have presented to the Southern people a civilian leader for them to look up to, rather than a military man like Robert E. Lee.
But all this comes at a price. Even by the standards of the Confederacy, Toombs was a fire-eaters' fire-eater. As President of the Confederacy, his personal politics would have frozen the British Empire into strictest neutrality. Napoleon III wouldn't care, but no way does he break the blockade without Britain.
In the end? A more united South, but Lincoln's diplomacy becomes a whole lot easier.

 

[usertron2020]

What ab Richard Toombs?

You entered this while I was writing. And it's Robert.

 

[GreatScottMarty]

I always liked Breckenridge. Kentuckian, US Senator, VP. What better way to stick it to the US than to nominate their last VP for POTCSA? Also as a former VP Breckenridge is much more palatable to Europe something IMO is necessary for a CSA victory.

 

[Treppe]

Yeah I did. Sorry for the mistake.

In this TL the battle of Shiloh is won by the confederates and Beauregard, now a celebrated hero, chases Buel (he was the commander of the relief force for Grant, wasn't he?) and diminishes his forces. This leads to a confederate Kentucky and a more confederate gains in the western theater.
By the end of 1861 Kentucky and Missouri had joined the CSA.

In the east things run quite historical. until:
1.9. - 2.9. Battle of Centreville / Germantown (instead of Battle of Chantilly / Ox Hill) Pope does not anticipate Jacksons flanking march and gets hit by Jacksons attack in his rear with the important railway and road junction of Germantown in confederate hands Popes troops which were smashed badly were denied to withdraw northwards and eastwards to Washington.

From their on Lee marches across the Potomac takes Baltimore, with the Marylanders cheering the confederate troops as liberators, and lays siege to Washington as autumn days into winter.

 

[usertron2020]

I'm doubling down

I always liked Breckenridge. Kentuckian, US Senator, VP. What better way to stick it to the US than to nominate their last VP for POTCSA? Also as a former VP Breckenridge is much more palatable to Europe something IMO is necessary for a CSA victory.

Breckenridge CAN'T be named POTCSA. At the time of the creation of the Confederacy, Kentucky was a Union state. It would have been like "appointing" Andrew Johnson POTUS in 1861. You needed someone from an unquestionably Deep South state, with good lines of communication to the rest of the country. That left out border states AND the Transmississippi states. Just Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee (alot of Unionists there), Florida (not many PEOPLE there), Georgia, and South Carolina. Virginia and North Carolina didn't go until after Ft. Sumter. Not much of a pool of choices, is it? That's why I picked Toombs.

 

[Mikestone8]

Robert A. Toombs, Senator from Georgia, perhaps the #1 fire-eater in the US Senate. Openly favored full restoration of the Slave Trade. Actually, legalization since slave ships were arriving in the South till Lee surrendered. OTL, he tried for the job of POTCSA but was beaten out by Davis. He had to settle for being Davis' first Secretary of State. Stephens, his fellow Georgian, got the VP. No Davis? Pathway is open for Toombs, who was an outstanding orator in his day. No Lincoln, but who was? He may well have been able to rally the Confederate nation in a way Davis never could. He might have presented to the Southern people a civilian leader for them to look up to, rather than a military man like Robert E. Lee.
But all this comes at a price. Even by the standards of the Confederacy, Toombs was a fire-eaters' fire-eater. As President of the Confederacy, his personal politics would have frozen the British Empire into strictest neutrality. Napoleon III wouldn't care, but no way does he break the blockade without Britain.
In the end? A more united South, but Lincoln's diplomacy becomes a whole lot easier.

He wasn't a fire eater on all matters.

Iirc he strongly protested at the decision to bombard Ft Sumter, because it would unite the North behind Lincoln. Interesting question what happens if it isn't fired on. How long does the peace hold, and who breaks it first?

 

[GreatScottMarty]

Breckenridge CAN'T be named POTCSA. At the time of the creation of the Confederacy, Kentucky was a Union state. It would have been like "appointing" Andrew Johnson POTUS in 1861. You needed someone from an unquestionably Deep South state, with good lines of communication to the rest of the country. That left out border states AND the Transmississippi states. Just Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee (alot of Unionists there), Florida (not many PEOPLE there), Georgia, and South Carolina. Virginia and North Carolina didn't go until after Ft. Sumter. Not much of a pool of choices, is it? That's why I picked Toombs.

touche. I guess we are stuck with Toombs

 

[Treppe]

I go with Toombs. Maybe he will prevent the atttack on Fort Sumter. And thus Lincoln will start the war.

 

[Mikestone8]

Breckenridge CAN'T be named POTCSA. At the time of the creation of the Confederacy, Kentucky was a Union state. It would have been like "appointing" Andrew Johnson POTUS in 1861. You needed someone from an unquestionably Deep South state, with good lines of communication to the rest of the country. That left out border states AND the Transmississippi states. Just Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee (alot of Unionists there), Florida (not many PEOPLE there), Georgia, and South Carolina. Virginia and North Carolina didn't go until after Ft. Sumter.

Nor did Tennessee.

 

[robertp6165]

Robert A. Toombs, Senator from Georgia, perhaps the #1 fire-eater in the US Senate. Openly favored full restoration of the Slave Trade.

Source please? Robert Toombs was in fact the leader of the faction within the Fireeater movement which opposed reintroduction of the slave trade. William L. Yancey led the faction, opposed by Toombs' faction, which argued for a renewed slave trade.

Actually, legalization since slave ships were arriving in the South till Lee surrendered.

Horse hockey. You could probably count on the fingers of one hand all of the slave ships which landed at American ports after the law making the slave trade illegal was passed in 1808. The last slave ship to land in any American port was the Clotilde, which landed in Mobile, Alabama in the fall of 1859. None are recorded to have landed at any Southern port while the Confederacy was in control.

 

[robertp6165]

Breckenridge CAN'T be named POTCSA. At the time of the creation of the Confederacy, Kentucky was a Union state. It would have been like "appointing" Andrew Johnson POTUS in 1861. You needed someone from an unquestionably Deep South state, with good lines of communication to the rest of the country. That left out border states AND the Transmississippi states. Just Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee (alot of Unionists there), Florida (not many PEOPLE there), Georgia, and South Carolina. Virginia and North Carolina didn't go until after Ft. Sumter. Not much of a pool of choices, is it? That's why I picked Toombs.

While I agree that Breckinridge is not a viable candidate because Kentucky was not a member of the Confederacy, you do have some incorrect information here. Texas and Louisiana, both Transmississippi states, were among the original seven which formed the Confederacy. And, as someone else has noted, Tennessee was not one of the original seven...it seceded in June 1861, after Fort Sumter.

 

[robertp6165]

touche. I guess we are stuck with Toombs

Not necessarily. Toombs, because he was such a well-known fire-eater, would likely have been snubbed for the same reason other leading fire-eaters such as William Loundes Yancey and Robert Barnwell Rhett were snubbed...the majority of the people in the secession movement in 1860-1861 were not radicals like the fire-eaters and they wanted a more conservative government than the fire-eaters were likely to provide. That's why Davis got the job. If Davis refuses, there's a number of polticians around who opposed secession but went with the Confederacy when secession happened. Men like Herschel V. Johnson, Alex Stephens, and others.

You could very well end up with Alex Stephens as President. I think he is far more likely than Robert Toombs.