Alternate British Peerage

hey, all. some of you may be aware of my "harold wins at hastings" thread. in vague relation to that, i want to look into what some alternative noble titles could arise from britain having more anglo-saxon influences on its language. the language itself isnt as important right now, as i plan to use pre-existing names for the nobility from danish and german nobility instead, though their roles would be the same. for quick reference, these are the british titles of peerage:

  1. Duke
  2. Marquess
  3. Earl
  4. Viscount
  5. Baron
  6. Knight
basically, i want to get some second opinions on what "replacement" names could be used
 

Delvestius

Banned
"Jarl" is a general term for a leader in the Norse languages, I'm sure it would make sense in the context of an Anglo-Saxon culture.

The "Eorlmen" were basically the King's dukes and high nobles. This is why "Earl" replaces "Count" in British peerage, although the title gives less power than what the "Eorlmen" traditionally had.

Lesser noblemen, such as earls and barons were called Thains.

Huscarls were the landowning military rulers, equatable to knights. Some sources describe Huscarls as a noble rank that is on par with or even surpasses a thain, but traditionally, Norse huscarls were elite bodyguards, administrators and companions of the nobles. They became the De Facto knight class in Anglo Saxon culture, representing the lowest ranking noble/landowner and the standard officer of Saxon armies..

EDIT: A clarification, "Jarls" were princes and archdukes, not the kings. Germanic societies would just use the word "king". Some ways of spelling in various germanic languages are Kung, Koneg and Konge. So it would look like this:

1. Kung
2. Jarl
3. Eorlman
4. Thain
5. Huscarl
 
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"Jarl" is a general term for a leader in the Norse languages, I'm sure it would make sense in the context of an Anglo-Saxon culture.

The "Eorlmen" were basically the King's dukes and high nobles. This is why "Earl" replaces "Count" in British peerage, although the title gives less power than what the "Eorlmen" traditionally had.

Lesser noblemen, such as earls and barons were called Thains.

Huscarls were the landowning military rulers, equatable to knights. Some sources describe Huscarls as a noble rank that is on par with or even surpasses a thain, but traditionally, Norse huscarls were elite bodyguards, administrators and companions of the nobles. They became the De Facto knight class in Anglo Saxon culture, representing the lowest ranking noble/landowner and the standard officer of Saxon armies..

EDIT: A clarification, "Jarls" were princes and archdukes, not the kings. Germanic societies would just use the word "king". Some ways of spelling in various germanic languages are Kung, Koneg and Konge. So it would look like this:

1. Kung
2. Jarl
3. Eorlman
4. Thain
5. Huscarl

If we're going to go with Britain having more Norse influence to it, then it would make sense that the title for king should be Konung or Koning.
 
personally, im going for a mix of different titles from different languages. for example, taking delvestius' suggestion, thanes replace viscounts and huscarls knights (though ive decided that "huscarl" and "knight" are interchangeable ITTL) and that margrave (a german title) replaces marquess. at the same time, though, british earls remain the same, instead of having eorls or jarls instead

one thing that im debating is whether or not the title of baron should remain or if i should give them the german "freiherr" instead. i can actually see some interesting/humorous confusion about this where people outside britain mistake freiherrs for friars :p
 

Delvestius

Banned
If we're going to go with Britain having more Norse influence to it, then it would make sense that the title for king should be Konung or Koning.

It's Kung in Swedish, and Konge in Danish/Norwegian. Aside from a slight pronunciation difference it's the same, and much closer than the ones you had listed, which are the Dutch and German equivalents respectively.

So if it REALLY mattered, then Konge (Kung) would be the most logical choice, if Britain had more Norse influence to it.

But it doesn't really. It's the same damn word. I bet you the Anglo-Danes would have yet another pronunciation.
 
"Jarl" is a general term for a leader in the Norse languages, I'm sure it would make sense in the context of an Anglo-Saxon culture.

The "Eorlmen" were basically the King's dukes and high nobles. This is why "Earl" replaces "Count" in British peerage, although the title gives less power than what the "Eorlmen" traditionally had.

Lesser noblemen, such as earls and barons were called Thains.

Huscarls were the landowning military rulers, equatable to knights. Some sources describe Huscarls as a noble rank that is on par with or even surpasses a thain, but traditionally, Norse huscarls were elite bodyguards, administrators and companions of the nobles. They became the De Facto knight class in Anglo Saxon culture, representing the lowest ranking noble/landowner and the standard officer of Saxon armies..

EDIT: A clarification, "Jarls" were princes and archdukes, not the kings. Germanic societies would just use the word "king". Some ways of spelling in various germanic languages are Kung, Koneg and Konge. So it would look like this:

1. Kung
2. Jarl
3. Eorlman
4. Thain
5. Huscarl


I believe you mean Ealdorman which was the AS equivalent of Jarls/Eorls.
And you forgot the Reeves who in some case were more powerful than Thegns.

So

1. Cyning
2. Jarl/Eorl/Ealdorman
3. Thegn
4. Huscarl
5. Reeve
 

Delvestius

Banned
At any rate, it's Oshron's call.

I think you mix idea is pretty cool, I love the idea of an Anglo-Danish language sans the Norman French.

I would comment though, you may want to look closer to Frisian than German as a language to get cognates from. Although German descended from Old Saxon, it was a slightly different version than the Anglo-Saxon that Old English was. Basically, Old English had more Angle it in than Saxon, and today Frisian remains the closest related language to English. German, to an extent yes, but not as much.
 

Delvestius

Banned
I believe you mean Ealdorman which was the AS equivalent of Jarls/Eorls.
And you forgot the Reeves who in some case were more powerful than Thegns.

So

1. Cyning
2. Jarl/Eorl/Ealdorman
3. Thegn
4. Huscarl
5. Reeve

Again, there are many variations across closely related dialects and languages, I don't feel that any one spelling is more correct than the other.

At any rate, I did forget about the reeves. However I feel that reeves could have been equatable with or even surpassed some huscarls if their village was larger, wealthier or more populated than a huscarl's manor.

EDIT: As you said, they could have been more powerful than thains.
 
ill look into the frisians, then :) here's what i currently have down for their peerage:

  1. King/Queen, Emperor/Empress, etc.
  2. Duke/Duchess
  3. Margrave/Margravine
  4. Earl/Countess (if at all possible id like to find a female equivalent that matches up better with "earl")
  5. Thane/Thaness?
  6. Baron/Baroness (or possibly Freiherr/Freifrau)
  7. Huscarl (gender-neutral)
  8. Reeve (magistrates; High Reeves are basically equivalent of Supreme Court justices for the purposes of discussion here--they would be closer to OTL Crown Prosecutors in the final version)
 

Delvestius

Banned
ill look into the frisians, then :) here's what i currently have down for their peerage:

  1. King/Queen, Emperor/Empress, etc.
  2. Duke/Duchess
  3. Margrave/Margravine
  4. Earl/Countess (if at all possible id like to find a female equivalent that matches up better with "earl")
  5. Thane/Thaness?
  6. Baron/Baroness (or possibly Freiherr/Freifrau)
  7. Huscarl (gender-neutral)
  8. Reeve (magistrates; High Reeves are basically equivalent of Supreme Court justices for the purposes of discussion here--they would be closer to OTL Crown Prosecutors in the final version)

If were going for a language without any romantic influence, Duke would be out. It comes from Latin "Dux", meaning leader, and was brought over by William the Conqueror. I would replace that with Earl. It would show the lasting mark the Germanic languages had on peerage.

As far as Margrave goes, it is derived from German "Margraf", or "march count". In Anglo Saxon, Graf = count, so I would put that under Earl.

Barons too were brought over by William. No William means no barons.

1. King (or however you want to spell it)
2. Earl
3. Graf
4. Thane
5. Huscarl
6. Reeve
 
ill look into the frisians, then :) here's what i currently have down for their peerage:

  1. King/Queen, Emperor/Empress, etc.
  2. Duke/Duchess
  3. Margrave/Margravine
  4. Earl/Countess (if at all possible id like to find a female equivalent that matches up better with "earl")
  5. Thane/Thaness?
  6. Baron/Baroness (or possibly Freiherr/Freifrau)
  7. Huscarl (gender-neutral)
  8. Reeve (magistrates; High Reeves are basically equivalent of Supreme Court justices for the purposes of discussion here--they would be closer to OTL Crown Prosecutors in the final version)

Some comments:

4: Earl might not have an easy female equivalent. But I don't think you'd get -ess as a feminizer, speaking in general - not with a more Germanic/Norse Anglish. Its possible you'd get some form of Lady (which has OE roots - hlǣfdige) as the feminine form.

5: Thane (thegn) could be gender neutral.

7: Huscarl is House-man (carl=man, specifically free man). If you're using this as gender neutral, that's fine, but I figured its worth noting.
 
If were going for a language without any romantic influence, Duke would be out. It comes from Latin "Dux", meaning leader, and was brought over by William the Conqueror. I would replace that with Earl. It would show the lasting mark the Germanic languages had on peerage.

As far as Margrave goes, it is derived from German "Margraf", or "march count". In Anglo Saxon, Graf = count, so I would put that under Earl.

Barons too were brought over by William. No William means no barons.

1. King (or however you want to spell it)
2. Earl
3. Graf
4. Thane
5. Huscarl
6. Reeve

Instead of duke they might import something like Herzog (German), hertog (Dutch), Hertug (Danish, Norwegian), Hertig (Swedish) instead, which is how a duke is called in these languages; Scandinavian kingdoms ended up adopting this title.
 
If were going for a language without any romantic influence, Duke would be out. It comes from Latin "Dux", meaning leader, and was brought over by William the Conqueror. I would replace that with Earl. It would show the lasting mark the Germanic languages had on peerage.

As far as Margrave goes, it is derived from German "Margraf", or "march count". In Anglo Saxon, Graf = count, so I would put that under Earl.

Barons too were brought over by William. No William means no barons.

1. King (or however you want to spell it)
2. Earl
3. Graf
4. Thane
5. Huscarl
6. Reeve

Indeed
Some comments:

4: Earl might not have an easy female equivalent. But I don't think you'd get -ess as a feminizer, speaking in general - not with a more Germanic/Norse Anglish. Its possible you'd get some form of Lady (which has OE roots - hlǣfdige) as the feminine form.

5: Thane (thegn) could be gender neutral.

7: Huscarl is House-man (carl=man, specifically free man). If you're using this as gender neutral, that's fine, but I figured its worth noting.

Hmm the wife of an Earl would likely be Earlwif(e) (perhaps pronounced arliff) etc but going by the other Germanic languages the female equivalent (ie a female Earl) would likely be Earlin.

Instead of duke they might import something like Herzog (German), hertog (Dutch), Hertug (Danish, Norwegian), Hertig (Swedish) instead, which is how a duke is called in these languages; Scandinavian kingdoms ended up adopting this title.

According to Wiktionary the Old English form is Heretoga (I'd have suggested it was hypothetical but that's just me ;)). If this is adapted early enough then a possible future pronounciation would be hartow (spelling possibilities in lack of Norman Conquest: Hertog, Hertogh, Hertoh, Hertow, Har- etc). A later adaptation would likely give Hertock (along the lines of bullock, hillock, paddock etc) with the amusing folk etymology of "little stag" :D
 

Thande

Donor
King is "Cyning" in Old English, they would use C rather than K unless there was a LOT of Norse influence (they were still using C after the already great OTL Norse influence of the Danelaw, Canute etc). Otherwise what's been said above is basically correct.
 
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