Alternate British Peerage, Take 2

hey, all. some of you may remember this thread that i started almost two and a half years ago now. since i've been working pretty extensively on *British history for my ASB ATL, the issue that i didn't really finalize my alternate peerage list and still had one or two Romance-language names on it. instead of necro'ing my old thread, i figured i'd just start a new one and appeal for some advice.

the important thing here is, mainly, that the English language ITTL is more Germanic (Norman invasion fails, so there's no French influences on the language). i plan for the peerage titles ITTL to, essentially, be these:

  • Grand Duke
  • Duke
  • Marquess
  • Margrave
  • Earl
  • Viscount
  • Baron
  • Knight
  • Knight of Honor (and yes, these are ripped straight from Code Geass; the whole timeline was inspired by that show)
again, since English ITTL is more like Danish or German, the noble titles need to be adjusted appropriately. in context, "Knight of Honor" will probably be replaced by "Housecarl" (since they're expys of knights and non-hereditary) while others, where applicable, would be replaced with their Germanic equivalents (Freiherr instead of Baron, Thane instead of Viscount, etc.) while others will be replaced with something else entirely or just omitted (Marquess and Margrave are synonyms, for instance, so just Margrave will be staying)

replacements i'm currently considering are:

  • Grand Duke
  • Duke (might be replaced with Earl or Herzog)
  • Ealdormen (might replace Marquess, or Marquess would be omitted)
  • Margrave (unchanged)
  • Earl (unchanged)
  • Thane (replaces Viscount)
  • Freiherr (replaces Baron)
  • Knight (might be omitted)
  • Housecarl (replaces Knight of Honor)
any ideas for how how i can adjust this otherwise and what would be the most likely British noble titles following a persisting Anglo-Saxon regime?
 
I'm not terribly familiar with Old English or German, but the thoughts that come to mind, from the bottom up:

Knight of Honor: What exactly is a Knight of Honor?

Knight: If "warrior" becomes a distinct role, in which case you could well use that term - it's from an English root* after all.

Baron: Anglo-Saxon Thanes OTL probably fit this best.

Earl: Anglo-Saxon eorls are more equivalent to later dukes than the middle-rank - as with baron, you probably want something implying delegated authority, or perhaps a lesser eorl.

Margrave: I've no idea why this and marquess are two separate titles here. And if a term was needed for a march-count, I'd use something equivalent to what evolved into sheriff historically, personally.

Duke: As stated under earl, an Anglo-Saxon eorl is of equivalent to ducal rank.

Grand Duke: Heaharl (pardon my terrible linguistic skills) - high-earl. Or a broadened sense of atheling - meaning in this sense one equivalent to the king's sons in everything except(?) a claim to the throne.

Possibly use Count (as a title that originally was senior to duke). Possibly.

The main thing I see: A housecarl is a specific position - if one had to translate, it's a member of the royal (or earlish, to use a term that would have to exist in this version of English) household. There's no "warrior class" or basis for defining a "warrior class" as distinct from freemen, to the best of my knowledge.

It's your timeline, but it doesn't really make sense to just use terms casually without understanding their meaning and application - sure things change over time but there's no reason to invent terms like freiherr when thane describes that niche just fine.


* Middle English, from Old English cniht man-at-arms, boy, servant; akin to Old High German kneht youth, military follower.
 
[*]Grand Duke
[*]Duke (might be replaced with Earl or Herzog)
[*]Ealdormen (might replace Marquess, or Marquess would be omitted)
[*]Margrave (unchanged)
[*]Earl (unchanged)
[*]Thane (replaces Viscount)
[*]Freiherr (replaces Baron)
[*]Knight (might be omitted)
[*]Housecarl (replaces Knight of Honor)

Personally, I'd do it

Maest Hlāford (basically, Great Lord--maest is the Old English equivalent of the Old German root of "meisten" (e.g. am meisten--most))
Hlāford
Ealdorman (earl means the same as ealdorman, so those and margrave are grouped together)
Thegn (or thane, I prefer the more modern spelling)
Beorn or, if you'd like a more Norse flavoring, Bjorn (historically one of the roots of the term Baron)
Huscarl (housecarl, natch, grouping knight and knight of honor under the same roof--this would be something of an evolution in terms, using huscarl to describe landed soldiers who are not part of the royal household, though they are personally bound to the king)

The other ranks seem, well, pointless to me.

EDIT: Knight of Honor could be changed to Tythingman, I suppose.
 
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there's a spoiler next to "Knight of Honor" explaining the listing ;)
Knight of Honor: What exactly is a Knight of Honor?
this would be a non-noble who's distinguished themselves in some way to warrant being given a non-hereditary honorary title; they're the lowest-ranked nobility and their titles don't pass on to their next of kin. basically, they're like people IOTL who have been knighted. further distinguishment would warrant further promotions in rank (like how Richard Attenborough was knighted in 1976 and then made into a baron in '93)
Knight: If "warrior" becomes a distinct role, in which case you could well use that term - it's from an English root* after all.

* Middle English, from Old English cniht man-at-arms, boy, servant; akin to Old High German kneht youth, military follower.
i'm not sure exactly what i was thinking of in relation to having both Knights and Knights of Honor. perhaps it could be that there's one class of *Knights which are hereditary and another which aren't?
Baron: Anglo-Saxon Thanes OTL probably fit this best.
pretty much what i was thinking ;)
Earl: Anglo-Saxon eorls are more equivalent to later dukes than the middle-rank - as with baron, you probably want something implying delegated authority, or perhaps a lesser eorl.
point taken ;) Dukes are now Earls, then :) (now what should i replace the old Earl rank with, if anything)
Margrave: I've no idea why this and marquess are two separate titles here. And if a term was needed for a march-count, I'd use something equivalent to what evolved into sheriff historically, personally.
kinda explained by the spoiler ;) *Marquess may well just be the next rank up from Margrave, based on OTL peerage (or Margrave could be the replacement for OTL Earls in terms of rank)
Grand Duke: Heaharl (pardon my terrible linguistic skills) - high-earl. Or a broadened sense of atheling - meaning in this sense one equivalent to the king's sons in everything except(?) a claim to the throne.
sounds good to me
The main thing I see: A housecarl is a specific position - if one had to translate, it's a member of the royal (or earlish, to use a term that would have to exist in this version of English) household. There's no "warrior class" or basis for defining a "warrior class" as distinct from freemen, to the best of my knowledge.
i had imagined housecarls basically being TTL's Life Guards, the household defense forces of the *British monarch. this was more or less their role IOTL during their time, after all.
It's your timeline, but it doesn't really make sense to just use terms casually without understanding their meaning and application - sure things change over time but there's no reason to invent terms like freiherr when thane describes that niche just fine.
hence why i'm looking around for other suggestions ;)
 
You can use the follwing:

Grand Duke - High Earl
Duke - Earl
Marquess/Margrave - Margrave
Earl - Grave (German for count is Graf and for Margrave is Markgraf)
Viscount - Vicegrave
Baron - Lord
Hereditary Knight - Thane
Knight - No Change
 
there's a spoiler next to "Knight of Honor" explaining the listing ;)this would be a non-noble who's distinguished themselves in some way to warrant being given a non-hereditary honorary title; they're the lowest-ranked nobility and their titles don't pass on to their next of kin. basically, they're like people IOTL who have been knighted. further distinguishment would warrant further promotions in rank (like how Richard Attenborough was knighted in 1976 and then made into a baron in '93)i'm not sure exactly what i was thinking of in relation to having both Knights and Knights of Honor. perhaps it could be that there's one class of *Knights which are hereditary and another which aren't?

IRL, knighthood was never hereditary - knighthood is always bestowed on the individual. Thus the lesser aristocracy morphing into the squirearchy.

pretty much what i was thinking ;)point taken ;) Dukes are now Earls, then :) (now what should i replace the old Earl rank with, if anything)

I think alderman (using the modern spelling) works, or perhaps shire-something - equivalent to lieutenant (place holder).

*Marquess may well just be the next rank up from Margrave, based on OTL peerage (or Margrave could be the replacement for OTL Earls in terms of rank)
OTL peerage, they're the same title - Duke > Marquess > Earl > Viscount > Baron.

sounds good to mei had imagined housecarls basically being TTL's Life Guards, the household defense forces of the *British monarch. this was more or less their role IOTL during their time, after all.

So keep it as that rather than a title.
 
If you're having a POD as far back as 1066, I'd almost suggest that you try reconstructing your own peerage, or at least morph what went before into a new peerage system with as many ranks as you require, rather than just renaming OTL's peerage. 1000 years is a lot of time, and easily 100 or 200 years could create little quirks of fate so I'd suggest playing around with other parts of society to create extra titles. Maybe if you can find the Anglo-Saxon version of a steward or chancellor or castellan, all previously non-landed members of a lord's household, you can tweak society so that somehow they become independently landed and become "noble".

I'm about to go out so I don't have time to write up a full reply, but here's some other thoughts I had:

- In the years pre-1066, there was a fair amount of client stating, and unlike the mediaeval era and the present, there was no perceived reason why two men equal in rank had to be equal in stature. Therefore, there are quite a few references to a "King" (usually spelled "Cing" I believe) being the vassal of the "Cing of England". If you have any areas you want to be semi-independent/autonomous you could use Cing instead of Grand Duke (a vanity rank of the mediaeval era if ever there was one), or you could just adapt the history so that Cing is somehow a conferrable title. Presumably being made a Cing, even as vassal to the Cing of England, would have to be a fairly important/prestigious position, though, so you might want to reserve purely for the autonomous vassals as suggested above?

- The title "Reeve" was a non-noble title given to senior officials who acted as chief magistrate of a local area. From this evolved the title "High-reeve" (hēahgerēfa) which was usually given to a lord - there's two potentials for you.

- A common unit of land management in the Norse era was the "hundred" - still in use in several Anglo countries today though not for administration. It previously either referred to grouping the country into groups of 100 houses or groups of houses that could field 100 able-bodied men, and was used for army recruitment. You could always use a term like "hundredman" for a local Knight-level title, or lower?

- In the immediate pre-1066 era the Kings of England had a retinue of 3,000 soldiers called the Thingmen. You could easily make Thingman into a Knight kind of title? Again, considering that 1,000 years is a long time to mould society into what you make of it, why not have several ranks of Knights? I.e. the Thingmen who are Knights directly under the King, Housecarls who are Knights under a vassal lord? You could split it further up if you wanted to, I'm sure (I'm a bit of a fan of stratification myself when I'm designing stuff for kicks)

I could probably think of more - designing alternate societies is one of the things I like about AH - but I don't have the time right now unfortunately. Hopefully this stuff will give you some ideas.
 
- In the years pre-1066, there was a fair amount of client stating, and unlike the mediaeval era and the present, there was no perceived reason why two men equal in rank had to be equal in stature. Therefore, there are quite a few references to a "King" (usually spelled "Cing" I believe) being the vassal of the "Cing of England". If you have any areas you want to be semi-independent/autonomous you could use Cing instead of Grand Duke (a vanity rank of the mediaeval era if ever there was one), or you could just adapt the history so that Cing is somehow a conferrable title. Presumably being made a Cing, even as vassal to the Cing of England, would have to be a fairly important/prestigious position, though, so you might want to reserve purely for the autonomous vassals as suggested above?
i was kinda planning to have the highest noble/social rank in TTL's *British society be an Emperor with the next rank down being King, kinda based on the same concept in Decades of Darkness
- The title "Reeve" was a non-noble title given to senior officials who acted as chief magistrate of a local area. From this evolved the title "High-reeve" (hēahgerēfa) which was usually given to a lord - there's two potentials for you.
i was thinking of basically making reeve the official *British title for a judge, but having it as a chief magistrate is probably better (with high reeves being the equivalent of Supreme Court justices in the US)
- A common unit of land management in the Norse era was the "hundred" - still in use in several Anglo countries today though not for administration. It previously either referred to grouping the country into groups of 100 houses or groups of houses that could field 100 able-bodied men, and was used for army recruitment. You could always use a term like "hundredman" for a local Knight-level title, or lower?
that...is an awesome idea. knights in the classical sense as feudal landowners will be hundredmen, then ;) (though i have to wonder if there's either an Anglo-Saxon name i could use for that)
 
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