Alternate Battle of Samar

On October 24, 1944, during the battle of Leyte Gulf, the Japanese Center force under Admiral Takeo Kurita attempted to force their way through the San Bernardino strait, to interfere with the ongoing American landings on the island of Leyte. The center force had already been harried by American submarines on the previous day, losing the heavy cruisers Maya and Atago (Kurita's flagship), and forcing the cruiser Takao to retire to Singapore. On the 24th, the Japanese came under relativly light yet persistent attacks from American aircraft, which crippled the crusier Myoko and eventually sank the battleship Musashi. Kurita withdrew temporarily to escape these attacks.

Later that day, Kurita returned, and sortied through the San Bernardino strait unopposed. There, they encountered the American warships of Taffy 3 in the battle of Samar. There, an outmatched force of american destroyers and escort carriers managed to hold off the last great striking force of the Imperial Japanese Navy.

But this engagement, both the hopeless American position and the utter failure of the Japanese, could have been averted. Admiral William Halsey, commanding the American Third Fleet, had actually drawn up a contingency plan to prevent such a Japanese penetration. The covering force, to be designated Task Force 34, would consist of the battleships Alabama, Washington, Massachusetts, and South Dakota, along with five cruisers and Fourteen destroyers. Said force was to be covered by two carrier groups. However, Halsey led the bulk of the third fleet north after Ozawa, leaving the passage uncontested.

Now we come to our POD. What if, showing a tad bit more caution than OTL, Halsey departs after Ozawa with all available carrier forces, but leaves Lee and Task Force 34 in the San Bernardino strait? Kurita and his fleet emerged from the passage at about 3:00 am on the 25 October. So, depending on Lee's disposition, they will make contact with the Americans roughly around that time, perhaps a few hours later. The Americans may be prepared (several officers, including Lee, seem to have been aware that something was amiss), or may not (Halsey himself seems not to have been informed of the occurances in the San Bernardino strait). Kurita is probably ready for action, but may not be expecting to have to fight his way in.

The Americans bring to the table four South Dakota class battleships (South Dakota, Alabama, Washington, and Massachusetts), two heavy cruisers (Wichita, New Orleans), three light cruisers (Vincennes, Biloxi, Miami), and fourteen destroyers. The Japanese fleet consists of four battleships (Yamato, Nagato, Kongo, Haruna), six heavy cruisers (Tone, Chikuma, Haguro, Chokai, Kumano, Suzuya), a pair of light cruisers (Noshiro and Yahagi), and eleven destroyers.

So who triumphs in this, the world's last great battleship action?
 
There's way too many variables to make a definate assesment, but I would guess that USA has a slight advantage due to the Japanese having a poor commander who is badly shaken at this point (and wasn't that good to begin with either). If either side gets a good warning what's going on before the other, then it's all over for their opponent. Though if the Americans are sitting there they are probably well disposed to engage someone emerging from the straight.
 
If this happen, it would be the Battleships last hurray. My guess is an American victory, with the Japanese getting hurt, not that badly but enough to shake Kurita into retreating. The US at worst losses a Battleship at my guess, but i doubt. Most likely a few destroyers and a cruiser for the same to the Japanese along with a Kongo.
 
It would be quite a spectacle, and we would finally see if the Yamato's monstrous size and cost were worth it. That said, the Japanese are utterly screwed. The only question is how much of the fleet is able to escape and how much damage they can inflict on the Americans before either running or being destroyed. Kongo and Haruna are so badly overmatched in a battleship duel that they might as well not be there.
 
Decisive US victory barring ASB intervention. By this time, the US has the edge in ship design, gun design, sensors, gunnery direction, speed, commanders, and nearly every other factor including, believe it or not, torpedoes. All the IJN can point to are Yamato's 18.1 inch guns.

As has been discussed out very recently on this board, the US 16-inch gun and it's AP shell were the best large calibre weapon system in the world at this time. That, coupled with US radar and fire control, means the USN battlewagons will hit first, hit earlier, hit hard and keep on hitting.

The USN battleline is homogenous and modern. All the battleships have the same guns, same top speed, very similar handling characteristics, and the oldest, Washington, was launched in 1941.

The IJN batteline, conversely, is very mixed bag of gun calibres, gun ranges, top speeds and handling characteristics made up of two ships whose designs predate WW1, Kongo launched in 1913 and Haruna launched in 1915, Nagato, a ship launched in 1920, and Yamato launched in 1941.

Furthermore, both Kongo-class battleships started life as battlecruisers and, despite various refits, still had the weak armor protection of that type. Two Kongos had already been lost in the war; Hiei was damaged so badly by cruisers that she proved easy meat for the planes of Henderson Field and Kirishima who was pounded into a flaming wreck by Washington in less than 10 minutes one night later.

The IJN heavy and light cruisers, plus the destroyers, were similarly outclassed by their USN counterparts.

"Ching" Lee will kick some serious ass at San Bernardino Strait. Not just because he has better ships, better guns, and better men, but also because San Bernardino is narrow enough to force the IJN force in the OTL to traverse it in single file. We're looking at Surigao Strait North. Kongo will sink before those two torpedoes find her off Taiwan in November of '44, Yamato will not be sunk during her April '45 suicide run, Haruna will not be afloat for USN planes to sink in July of '45, and Nagato will not survive to be nuked at Bikini because they'll all be sunk at San Bernardino instead.


Bill
 
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CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
I guess it'd come down to whomever has the better gunnery skills.

Actually more likely better gun radar and better shells.

The American BB are all actual modern fast battleships, with the 16"/45 rifle that could fire the 2,700 pound super heavy AP shell, while the IJN has the Yamato, Nagano a WW I vintage BB with poor armor protection, and two dressed up battle cruisers in Kongo & Haruna, ships that had been proved to be very poorly protected at Guadalcanal where U.S. 5" AP shells had managed to penetrate their conning tower armor and 8" gun fire had effective destroyed the Hiei. This battle actually breaks down to the Yamato vs. the four U.S. BB for the first 30-40 minutes.

The IJN is is serious trouble in this scenario as the rather lousy Japanese gunnery in the actual battle off Samar indicates when compared to the 1st salvo hits obtained by the West Virginia in pitch darkness against the Fuso (hits obtained with the less accurate 2,240 pound Mark 5 shell and an earlier version of the gun laying radar found on the South Dakotas). In this scenario it is likely that Yamato is hit 15-20 times before she even fires her first salvo and continues to be hit by 8-10 2,700 pound shells a minute until her consorts close to firing range

The U.S. heavy cruisers, especially the Wichita, are actually carrying Superior armor protection than either of the Kongos and are very close to the quality, if not actual thickness of the Nagano. Even the "light" cruisers have nearly the same deck armor protection as the older IJN BC. The Japanese heavy cruisers are good ships, although the Tones are hampered by their rather odd design, while the two CL are more like big destroyers than true light cruisers with impressive torpedo armament, but a small, slow firing main battery (3x2 152mm/6" guns) and almost nonexistent secondary battery. The USN CL carried 4x3 6"/47 and 6x2 5"/38 guns both of which had a very high rate of fire (8-10 RPM for the 6" and 15-22 RPM for the 5") The U.S. DDs mounted either 5x1 or 3x2 5"/38 guns and 10 21" torpedo tubes vs the IJN destroyers with 5"/50 (excellent gun, but with a very show rate of fire at 5-10 RPM) and 8 24" torpedo tubes.

It is also interesting to note that, IOTL Samar, the IJN Long Lance was not even a minor factor, while the USN Mark 15 torpedo was responsible for the disabling or sinking of several Japanese CA. It must also be pointed out that Taffy 3 is still close by, with her 150 aircraft, with the other two Taffy formations not far away.

In this scenario, if any IJN ship larger than a destroyer get away it would be a miracle. The U.S. would probably wind up with a crippled BB and some damaged escorts (figure that one or two U.S. DD are lost simply because that will happen when 2,300 ton warships get in the middle of a fight between 60-80,000 ton monsters)
 
Perhaps substituting Spruance for Halsey might bring about the gunfight you want. TF 34 crossing the second T in two days. Running a combined operation where Kincaid and Halsey don't communicate was an oversight. Lack of monitoring patrols another oversight. Another air strike would have helped , but then, you wouldn't get your gun porn. Results as per Suribao Strait, but better, with more AP shells.
 

The Sandman

Banned
I think that the results might also depend on the attitude of the Japanese commander. Kurita is probably going to try to turn and run as soon as possible, but find someone else and it could get very ugly; the Japanese might well decide that if the IJN is doomed anyway (given that they were already sacrificing practically the entire surviving carrier fleet as a diversion, that shouldn't take too much of a leap of imagination) and shift their focus to simply doing as much damage as possible before they sink.

The entire IJN force is going to sink, of course, but they might well be able to do at least some damage to the USN capital ships before they go if they come in expecting to die.
 
I think I remember reading somewhere that the old US BB's were being used for shore bombardment and were thus only carrying a few AP shells each. Of course, even a 14-inch HE shell will do considerable damage to Kongo and Haruna.

Also, the Taffy's were being used for shore support and thus the CVE's weren't carrying AP bombs or torpedoes. Their air groups attack runs were being made with rockets, HE bombs and even depth charges! Fighters were attacking BB's with only 0.5-inch MG's! It could truly have been a 'last stand.'

And the three best quotes from the battle:

"Where is Task Force 34? The world wonders."

"That's it boys, we're sucking them into 40mm range!"

And after Kurita finallly had enough:

"G*dd*mn it, they're getting away!"
 
I think I remember reading somewhere that the old US BB's were being used for shore bombardment and were thus only carrying a few AP shells each. Of course, even a 14-inch HE shell will do considerable damage to Kongo and Haruna.


eltf177,

Wrong USN battleships force.

You're confusing Lee's force with Oldendorf's battleline at Surigao which included ships damaged at Pearl. They'd used most of their AP shells destroying Nishimoura's Southern pincer force the night before and were frantically unrepping south a few hours south of the Taffys and Leyte Gulf.

Lee's TF 34 battleline was made up of the USN's new fast battleships attached to Halsey's carriers and they had all the AP shells they needed.

"Where is Task Force 34? The world wonders."

"All the world wonders" actually.

Those words were added by a coding clerk at Nimitz' headquarters as part of a standard practice which adds phrases to make an enemy's attempts at decryption harder. The clerk had been reading Tennyson that day and unfortunately added a phrase from the poem Charge of the Light Brigade.

Halsey's "feelings were hurt" after he read the decrypted message, a message his own code clerks neglected to remove the padding from because they didn't realize it was padding, so he sulked and delayed releasing Lee for several hours. It's generally believed that Lee could have caught Kurita when the latter withdrew through San Bernardino after his "fight" with the Taffys if Halsey had acted when Nimitz' message was received.


Bill
 
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Planes...

The planes from the Taffy's might still have got onto the action until the shellfire got hot and heavy, providing distractions, and swatting any spotter planes the Japanese launched. I'd expect them to stay away durring the actual battle--a 16" shell doesn't care if it was aimed at a plane, if the plane happens to be there. Or, they might harass Yamato-many flaf officers would fight from the open bridge...
 
If TF 34 was to remain and spotted the enemy, dont you think Halsey would perhaps turn his fleet around and go with full speed towards the enemy?

I read about the battle in War and Rembrance were Pug Henry was stationed on one of the BBs.

You forgott "Were is Lee, send Lee!""

Whats better for the US Navy storywise? Killing the japanese entire fleet with BBs or have destroyers going in guns blasing alone against a stronger foe?
 
Halsey was off chasing the decoy fleet of empty carriers. Too far gone. His primary mission was to protect the invasion fleet with the proviso that juicy targets of opportunity might be pursued. Spruance had been ctiticised for not taking bait. Halsey bit.
 

burmafrd

Banned
It just goes to show how Halsey could not see the forest for the trees. IJN pilot quality had been going downhill for 2 years. During the Battle Of the Phillipine Sea it was very clear that they were close to worthless= and they had pretty much all been shot down anyway. ANYONE with a brain had to realize that the carriers had no quality pilots and therefore were a DECOY. When you have the huge difference in quality and quantity you can take a chance or two. Task Force 34 with one carrier group and also contact Kinkaid to have one of the Taffy Groups give air support. By the way also coordinate with him. Then take the other 2 groups with 2 BBs to finish off cripples and go north.

All the US BBs have upgraded SG Radar and have Lee as OTC. as has been mentioned our 16" 45 AP Rd was the best in the world. Nagato had decent armor, Yamato had plenty, but Kongo and Haruna are BC's. Add to the fact that we would have sent the DDs in to make torpedo attacks and it all adds up to the IJN going down all the way.
 

Markus

Banned
and two dressed up battle cruisers in Kongo & Haruna, ships that had been proved to be very poorly protected at Guadalcanal where U.S. 5" AP shells had managed to penetrate their conning tower armor and 8" gun fire had effective destroyed the Hiei.

I admit that battlecruisers have no place in a fight with battleships but in all fairness the damage done by the 8 and 5 inch shells was due to the absurdly short range. So short Hiei could not depress her main guns enough to return fire on the DD, so she fire at a more distant CA. Acc. to wiki that CA was a mere 2500 yards away. Thus the shells hit her vulnerable sides, not the better protected deck. But in spite of this damage and the air attacks on the next day her crew had almost restored steering control when an air dropped torpedo hit her and detonated.
 
The Americans bring to the table four South Dakota class battleships (South Dakota, Alabama, Washington, and Massachusetts), two heavy cruisers (Wichita, New Orleans), three light cruisers (Vincennes, Biloxi, Miami), and fourteen destroyers. The Japanese fleet consists of four battleships (Yamato, Nagato, Kongo, Haruna), six heavy cruisers (Tone, Chikuma, Haguro, Chokai, Kumano, Suzuya), a pair of light cruisers (Noshiro and Yahagi), and eleven destroyers.

Where is BatDiv7 (USS Iowa & USS New Jersey)?!? Can't we let Admiral Henry get his revenge for the sinking of USS Northampton?:)
 

Ming777

Monthly Donor
Indeed, it would be glorious swansong of the battleship. At least 2 Iowas, 4 of the previous 2 classes, along with escorts versus the combined battle fleet, led by the Yamato. If it had happened, imagine the movies made!!!
 
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