Alternate Artistic/Cultural/Ideological Movements

Most AH timelines (with a few exceptions - Bentham anyone?) seem to neglect the effect of the POD on the world of ideas and popular movements.

This thread is a place to post any of these kind of ideas that aren't normally focused on from your TL's. Alternatively, post a description of a movement and challenge people to find a POD.
 
I once started a thread on Ye Olde Boarde about WI Mozart lived twice as long. What I thought would be interesting there is a Mozart/Goethe collabortation on Faust.

Some other potentials:

1] No Hegel -- Marxism would be different without Hegelianism. Also both Kierkegaard and Schopenhauer were reacting strongly against Hegelianism so perhaps Existentialism is latered

2] WI there had been a really good philosopher arguing for Deism and so it persists more explicitly?

3]No Einstein. The cultural impact of Einstein Relativity = Relativism was in many ways more important than the math (most of which would have been worked out eventually anyway)

4] No Freud. Unlike behaviorism which I regard as one of those inevitable bad ideas I do not see Freudianism as inevitable
 
I said this before, but

WI Empiricism rather than Hippocratic humoral pathology wins out? Empirical medicine is not intrinsically better than Hippocratic (despite the bad reputation it got, Hippocratic medicine was actually quite effective, for its means), but using it properly will quickly require its practitioners to handle and organise large amounts of data. This might lead to all kinds of interesting inventions - like tabulating mathematical results, calculating averages, deviations, and probabilities, indexing fact collections, systematising quotations and developing techniques of quick acess. All of these could find fruitful application in administration, science, and magic.

Can you imagine a Greco-Roman Encyclopediste?
 

Thande

Donor
How about the Catholic Church adopting Aristarchus and Democritus instead of Aristotle? This might actually hurt in the long run, because the 'wisdom of the ancients' would be closer to the real world and thus it would take longer for people to challenge it.
 
i thought about i kind of ASB thing, where its OTL, but the music is 200-odd years behind, so Motzart and Beathoven play the same music in present time, but they dress like goths and have the same base audience eg Punks, rockers, rave etc

what about the plane crash with Bud Holly and the others doesnt crash?

or Britiany spears turns out to be a 42-yearold man?
 
The, er, first bedding of a new bride used to be a public affair. I remember reading about Mary, Henry VIII's sister and her proxy marriage to the King of France - the proxy had to bare his leg and touch hers. I get the impression that usually the court would hang around while the actual bride would rodger his fare groom. I suppose they had curtains ? Or not all of the time ? But what if this continues, and becomes the norm ? Nuptials Parties - the inviting upstairs of the guests at the wedding reception to see the happy couple in all their glory ? And for important people, wouldn't it be televised by now ? Princess Elizabeth (as she was then) and Prince Philip might be the first TV nuptial show of the modern age ?

Grey Wolf
 
Of course, television was developed in the 1930s. Imagine Edward VIII using the new medium to show his bedding of Wallace Simpson, in defiance of the establishment he marries her whilst still king relying on his nuptials broadcast to rally support...

Grey Wolf
 
Of course these days you would get a whole television station dedicated to it - Nuptials TV, dedicated to bringing the masses the first leg-overs of the stars !

Grey Wolf
going out for a walk...
 
A few more (rummaging around the hard disc here)

596 - St. Augustine Shows Bad Timing
Augustine, emissary of Pope Gregory I, arrives at the court of King
Ethelbert and immediately approaches the king's Christian wife, as planned.
He could hardly have chosen a worse time - Ethelbert has chosen to rid
himself of his unloved spouse under the influence of Mercia, and the
meddlesome monk is sent packing. England is Christianised by missionaries
from Ireland. The wave of Anglo-Saxon missionaries travelling the continent
in the 8th and 9th centuries spreads the word of the Celtic church, not
England's particular brand of Rome-oriented Catholicism. As a result, the
reform orders do not materialise, the papacy never manages to force its
claims for universal authority. Europe remains a continent of national
churches, dominated by kings and run by charismatic ascetics.


1948 - Israel is Grateful
In the wars that marred the inception of the state of Israel, the Haganah
was outnumbered and outgunned by its Arab enemies, abandoned by the west
and, thanks to a UN embargo, unable to obtain weapons even against cash on
the open market. The only nation willing to part with the sinews of war
even in small quantities was then Socialist, soon to be Communist
Czechoslovakia. Victorious, Israel did not forget and developed a close
attachment to Prague and its allied government. The ideals of the Kibbuzim
movement appealed to the Warsaw Pact governments, and while Stalin himself
had no interest in a Jewish ally, Khrushchev shrewdly spotted the
potential. In the rise and fall of the Soviet empire, Israel became key to
the 1967 seizing of the Suez canal against American-supported Egypt, the
First Gulf War against Iran (where several Arab nations allied with Israel
in fear of US-sponsored Islamism) and the violent suppression of the
Islamic Revolution in Mesopotamia and the Caucasus. After the fall of the
Berlin Wall, a still Communist Israel has become an international pariah
state surrounded by western-allied Islamist nations and abandoned by its
former allies in Russia and eastern Europe. Antisemitism is rife in most of
the world.


Flavius Chrysostomos, bishop of Rome 311-339
Flavius Proiectus, son of a wealthy family and student of rhetoric and
philosophy, converted to Christianity in his late twenties and quickly
established himself as one of the movement's religious leaders by virtue of
his education, intellect and social status. One of the first 'Latins' to
gain the respect of the predominantly Greek bishops (named 'Chrysostomos'
in reference to his amazing rhetorical gift), he devoted himself to serving
the poor and living a life of privation in hope of the salvation of his
soul. Chosen as bishop of Rome in 311, the aging clergyman, scarred by his
experience of the persecutions, met ambitious young Constantine after the
battle of Pons Milvicus. The emperor approached him to feel out the
readiness of the church establishment to back his claim to power. Flavius,
incensed at this intrusion of worldly affairs into his religious life,
rebuffed the ruler and in the next twenty years devoted every ounce of his
considerable energy to denouncing those Christians who strayed from the
path of renunciation of worldly life to cooperate with earthly authority.
The growing influence of the Flavian movement in the West frustrated much
of Constantine's attempt to use the church as part of his power structure,
leaving imperial authority comparatively weak. Eventually denounced as a
heresy in the East, Flavianism remained strong and moulded nascent western
Christendom into a world where religion was a matter of local charity,
shunning the temptations of politics and reviling the lust for power that
the partly pagan and universally secular Germanic dynasts exemplified.
 
Carlton,

I like your first (Celtic Church) and last (no power-mad Western Church) scenarios. I wonder how the world would turn out?
 
carlton_bach said:
I said this before, but

WI Empiricism rather than Hippocratic humoral pathology wins out? Empirical medicine is not intrinsically better than Hippocratic (despite the bad reputation it got, Hippocratic medicine was actually quite effective, for its means), but using it properly will quickly require its practitioners to handle and organise large amounts of data. This might lead to all kinds of interesting inventions - like tabulating mathematical results, calculating averages, deviations, and probabilities, indexing fact collections, systematising quotations and developing techniques of quick acess. All of these could find fruitful application in administration, science, and magic.

Can you imagine a Greco-Roman Encyclopediste?

Interesting; do you know of any sources about this?
 

Straha

Banned
My Draka ATL sees a world where medieval(tolkien style) fantasy as a genre NEVER happens but science fiction does. When Role playing games/Collectible card games hit in the ATL's 60's and 70's we see science fiction, AH(well more like parallel universes with alot of impluasible/ASB timelines) and pulp as being the bases for RPGS...
 
What if a belief of not centralising the Christian Faith devolped? Or what whould happen to the greek myths if they were conquered by Persia? Or if the telegraph had been invented earlier? Idealogically how would the different areas be affected?
 

Thande

Donor
The technology for a purely optical telegraph had been there for centuries. With better organisation and less international war and other strife, networks of optical telegraphs (like Pratchett's 'clacks' system) or heliographs could have crisscrossed Europe in the early eighteenth century, if not before.
 
From a timeline of mine that I'm working on:

In French India, Prajesh Badri d'Agartala, a Franco-Indian administrator links the new science of ecology with Hinduism, particularly the Karmic cycle, to create what he calls Nayaa Rasta (the New Way) or Badri-ism [as ignorant non-Muslims sometimes refer to Islam as Mohammedism]. Nayaa Rasta is a new political and religious belief system based on the linkage of everything together into an overall living world, through which souls and spirits move by the dictates of Karma. Only right living can raise up the world and improve it, and people's lot, in the longer term by improving _everything_ as people live their lives in many different forms. What is perceived as evolution is the _result_ of this long-term improvement. D'Agartala is assassinated by hard-line Hindus. Violence ensues, but he has many followers and Nayaa Rasta grows and spreads anyway.

Also:

Utilitarian Economic Rationalism (UER). A new political/economic philosophy, invented by Alberik Magnus Yngveson, a Swede, but taken up most thoroughly in Russia, where it is championed by Count Peter Lukich Khovansky. Its symbol is the white flag of the light of Rationalism. Its basic idea is that governments work best when _their_ people are as happy as possible. Thus safety first. Keep and develop what they _have_. Do not expand until they _can_, with certainty. Let go of poor investments, but ruthlessly grab certain opportunities when they arise. Do not let emotion and sentiment stop this happening. One has to be _strong_, not just to take and hold things, but also to _let them go_ when it is necessary. This has some success but (like communism) has more problems, and it eventually fails because it requires people who aren't human, and who _can_ just let go of things without emotion.
 
Faeelin said:
Interesting; do you know of any sources about this?

Only the chapters from the 'Illustrated History of Medicine' (it's in German, but the original is french. Sadly, the publishers neglected to give the poriginal title. The author of the article in question is Gaston Baisette, and if the translation is literal it should be 'Medicine chez les Grecs' (though I suspect 'Medicine Grecque' or something).

Any good book about Greek or Greco-Roman medicione ought to help you here, though.
 
Thande said:
The technology for a purely optical telegraph had been there for centuries. With better organisation and less international war and other strife, networks of optical telegraphs (like Pratchett's 'clacks' system) or heliographs could have crisscrossed Europe in the early eighteenth century, if not before.

Well, Napoleon certainly used one. He was able to communicate from Paris to the fleet at Rochefort in a very short time (I forget exactly what). I remember being quite surprised when I first read this; this type of thing tends to get overlooked in history. I believe I also read about a British version from Weymouth? to London

Grey Wolf
 
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