Alternate Anatolias

What if one of the many non-Ottoman groups in Anatolia took advantage of the situations given to them and unified the whole of Asia Minor under their control and influence?

Could be the Eastern Romans if Alexios and his plans actually succeeded, or any of the other Turkish beyliks (Karaman, Danishmend, etc), but what about some of the lesser known groups? Armenian Cilicia? Normans/Crusaders? Trebizond? Later on, maybe the Ilkhanate persists for longer and conquers Anatolia?

Who could have conquered the whole of Anatolia, and why?
 
For something entirely different... how likely is it for the Eastern Roman Empire to grant some Germanic tribe (be they Goths, Gepids, or someone else entirely) land in the interior of Anatolia and for them to consolidate there, thus creating a German Anatolia?
 
How about the Kurds? They have a substantial presence in certain parts of Turkey. Given a little bit of luck and demographic tweaking, it's within the realm of plausibility to have the Kurds to become the dominant ethnic group in Asia Minor?
 
For something entirely different... how likely is it for the Eastern Roman Empire to grant some Germanic tribe (be they Goths, Gepids, or someone else entirely) land in the interior of Anatolia and for them to consolidate there, thus creating a German Anatolia?
It seems possible, but that Germanic tribe would almost certainly Romanize/Hellenize with time, unless Sassanian Persia manages to conquer Constantinople and dismantle the Byzantines.
 
For something entirely different... how likely is it for the Eastern Roman Empire to grant some Germanic tribe (be they Goths, Gepids, or someone else entirely) land in the interior of Anatolia and for them to consolidate there, thus creating a German Anatolia?

They did. That's how you ended up with the Gothograeci in OTL, which as the name indicates were Hellenised.
 
Armenia absolutely has a shot here, but it would be better with a pre-Seljuk PoD. As I mentioned in the “could have been great powers” thread, if the Armenians had ever unified their squabbling polities during the Byzantine era they could have been a force to be reckoned with. They could have possibly controlled all of Eastern Anatolia, much of the southern Caucasus and even northern Syria.

From there, they could develop imperial ambitions and march on Constantinople, maybe in league with some European invaders like the Bulgarians. They might—if they’re lucky—capture Constantinople, starting a new dynasty of Armenian rulers (it had happened before!), and officially convert the empire to Miaphysitism, which would be a huge deal.
 
A Kurdish empire in Anatolia would be incredibly interesting! I'll definitely have to read your thread about it ramones.

There would definitely be a number of interesting results of this hypothetical Kurdish Anatolia. I still think it's very likely that a Muslim Kurdish empire would conquer Eastern Rome and ultimately Constantinople in a similar manner to the Ottomans (while the factors surrounding such an event would of course be different, the hadith that mentions "Verily you shall conquer Constantinople..." is, in my opinion, something that would definitely encourage muslim factions in Anatolia to push for such a conquest). Additionally, though most Kurds are Sunni, it would be interesting to see how a sizable Kurdish empire in Anatolia would affect christian Kurds and, most interestingly, Yazidi Kurds. Could Yazidis be a more substantial religious group in Anatolia, even with a Sunni Kurdish empire there?

Would there have to be a pre-Seljuk POD to have such a Kurdish empire, or could a majority-Kurd sultanate still form even if Turks expand into Anatolia?
 
How about the Kurds? They have a substantial presence in certain parts of Turkey. Given a little bit of luck and demographic tweaking, it's within the realm of plausibility to have the Kurds to become the dominant ethnic group in Asia Minor?
Turkey could still become majority Kurdish. If it happens, it will most likely be a peacefull affair. Today ethnic Kurds have a higher tfr than ethnic Turks, which means that over time, Turkey will become more Kurdish. On the other hand there is more assimilation of Kurds into the Turkish sphere than vice versa. Still it is not sure what the future of Turkey will look like.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/op...graying-turkey-vs-a-more-kurdish-turkey-82432
http://www.ibtimes.com/kurdish-majority-turkey-within-one-generation-705466
https://www.mercatornet.com/demography/view/15817
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ar-religious-divide-erdogan-population-growth
https://stockholmcf.org/president-erdogan-insults-kurds-in-turkey-over-their-fertility-rate/
 
So Sassanian victory = Gothic Anatolia?
Well, if the Goths are already present in the region due to some earlier POD, and the Sassanian victory is decisive enough that the Sassanians dominate most or all of Asia Minor and are in need of local non-Roman groups to recruit to form client states, then I would argue it's possible. Persian influence could overcome the Roman influence and then maybe the Goths could assimilate an area of Anatolia like the much earlier Galatians. Over time this Gothicized area might expand and constitute the whole of the peninsula, although it would be an uphill battle against the Roman and Persian Empires.
 
Armenia absolutely has a shot here, but it would be better with a pre-Seljuk PoD. As I mentioned in the “could have been great powers” thread, if the Armenians had ever unified their squabbling polities during the Byzantine era they could have been a force to be reckoned with. They could have possibly controlled all of Eastern Anatolia, much of the southern Caucasus and even northern Syria.

From there, they could develop imperial ambitions and march on Constantinople, maybe in league with some European invaders like the Bulgarians. They might—if they’re lucky—capture Constantinople, starting a new dynasty of Armenian rulers (it had happened before!), and officially convert the empire to Miaphysitism, which would be a huge deal.
I'd be interested in a related scenario whereas...
Constantine never unifies the Roman Empire, causing it to collapse into multiple, religiously divided states. Suffering from continued persecution, some Christians flee to Armenia and Axum, providing these states with a new advisory body. Armenia, in particular, takes advantage of the Roman Empire's divisiveness during the migration period and takes over large chunks of Anatolia, possibly also capturing the important Christian center of Antioch.
 
The Arab Empires managed to Arabize Egypt, the Levant, Mesopotamia, and North Africa, but they failed in Persia and Iberia. Could they have possibly Arabized Anatolia?
 
I'd be interested in a related scenario whereas...
Constantine never unifies the Roman Empire, causing it to collapse into multiple, religiously divided states. Suffering from continued persecution, some Christians flee to Armenia and Axum, providing these states with a new advisory body. Armenia, in particular, takes advantage of the Roman Empire's divisiveness during the migration period and takes over large chunks of Anatolia, possibly also capturing the important Christian center of Antioch.

So the Empire implodes completely? I guess you get Germanic successor states 150 years early, then. At this point, they’d just be Germanic pagans as well, which could be interesting.

As for Armenia, IIRC there were plenty of Armenians in Antioch so conquest of it by the Kingdom might not even be that difficult! No Council of Nikaea means that Armenian and Greek Christianity are technically one and the same. I could see the Sassanians sponsoring them in their invasion west, to be honest...

Another thought: I could see Armenians using the Greek alphabet ITTL, since the Armenian alphabet hasn’t been invented yet
 
So the Empire implodes completely? I guess you get Germanic successor states 150 years early, then. At this point, they’d just be Germanic pagans as well, which could be interesting.

As for Armenia, IIRC there were plenty of Armenians in Antioch so conquest of it by the Kingdom might not even be that difficult! No Council of Nikaea means that Armenian and Greek Christianity are technically one and the same. I could see the Sassanians sponsoring them in their invasion west, to be honest...

Another thought: I could see Armenians using the Greek alphabet ITTL, since the Armenian alphabet hasn’t been invented yet
Well, i was thinking about the empire collapsing a little later, namely in the period which IOTL would comprise the reigns of emperors Julian and Valentinian, who led extensive campaigns against the Germanics to the north. With less proper religious (and political) unity within the Roman Empire, i could see these Germanics making earlier crossings through the Rhine and Danube.
 
Well, i was thinking about the empire collapsing a little later, namely in the period which IOTL would comprise the reigns of emperors Julian and Valentinian, who led extensive campaigns against the Germanics to the north. With less proper religious (and political) unity within the Roman Empire, i could see these Germanics making earlier crossings through the Rhine and Danube.

So Constantine doesn’t accept Christianity, then, because of never seeing the cross in the sky at Milvian Bridge. Even without state sponsorship Christianity will still expand somewhat in a persisting Roman Empire (for the next half century ITTL). At least one of the Roman successor states could end up Christian.
 
I know there's a Slavic Anatolia timeline somewhere around the forums where they migrated into the core Byzantine areas and took it over.

No mention yet of the Georgians? They did hold sway over some of the Armenian kingdoms during the medieval period and even Trebizond. One might see an alternate Kingdom of Georgia turn towards the western reaches of Anatolia to create a hegemony over the Pontic coast before pushing inland. It would be a large border to defend, and being sandwiched between the Seljuks and whatever state was in control of the steppes to the north and Persia to the south would mean it would have to expand during a time when either the Byzantines or the Seljuks were particularly weak.
 
What if one of the many non-Ottoman groups in Anatolia took advantage of the situations given to them and unified the whole of Asia Minor under their control and influence?

Could be the Eastern Romans if Alexios and his plans actually succeeded, or any of the other Turkish beyliks (Karaman, Danishmend, etc), but what about some of the lesser known groups? Armenian Cilicia? Normans/Crusaders? Trebizond? Later on, maybe the Ilkhanate persists for longer and conquers Anatolia?

Who could have conquered the whole of Anatolia, and why?

The empire of Nicaea is my favourite candidate for an Anatolian "what if" scenario...

If we imagine that they either:

1. Simply endure; or
2. Conquer Anatolia

...then later history looks very different.
 
I know there's a Slavic Anatolia timeline somewhere around the forums where they migrated into the core Byzantine areas and took it over.

No mention yet of the Georgians? They did hold sway over some of the Armenian kingdoms during the medieval period and even Trebizond. One might see an alternate Kingdom of Georgia turn towards the western reaches of Anatolia to create a hegemony over the Pontic coast before pushing inland. It would be a large border to defend, and being sandwiched between the Seljuks and whatever state was in control of the steppes to the north and Persia to the south would mean it would have to expand during a time when either the Byzantines or the Seljuks were particularly weak.

I was thinking of a combined Georgian-Armenian Anatolia. The Georgian empire of the middle ages definitely could have pulled that off if it hadn't been somewhat subjugated by the Mongols/Ilkhanate. Maybe the Georgian-Armenian union extends to Armenian Cilicia and it is conquered from both the north and the south? Something that would make this quite interesting is how I very much doubt that Georgians would be able to spread much Georgian culture or language into the parts of their empire that don't already speak Georgian, so what would the relationship between the Georgian-Armenian ruling elite and the muslim Turkish and christian Greek population that would make up the vast majority of their empire? It would definitely be an interesting empire!

The empire of Nicaea is my favourite candidate for an Anatolian "what if" scenario...

If we imagine that they either:

1. Simply endure; or
2. Conquer Anatolia

...then later history looks very different.

Byzantine fanatic, could you expand on what you think would happen with a more powerful, longer surviving empire of Nicaea? I'd love to hear about that timeline!
 
What about Persian Anatolia? Persians have been in Anatolia since the Achaemenids, after all, and they were probably assimilated into the Persianized Turkic culture of the Seljuks. It’s not out of the realm of implausibility that large Persian empires settle Anatolia and assimilate its natives.
 
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