Where upon the Department of Finance sells them for scrap and pays someone to remove them.
Alternate Aircraft of Nations
- Thread starter Count of Crisco
- Start date
Never assume corruption when pig headed stupid is the more likely answer.
Who takes them to Ulster where they're fitted with arrester hooks and issued to HMS Formidable.
And if any of them survived the War and were being sold for surplus, then Finance would declare them value for money and insist the AC buy them, without buying any spares to keep them in service...
Realistically though the AC couldn't get the funding for enough spares to sustain a flight of hurricanes in Foynes, these would be out of service very quickly even without Finance being Finance.
Venezuelan Convair-B36D's Peacemakers
Due to the reduced number of strategic bombers that Latin American countries had in the 60s, and the almost non-existent air force that Venezuela had, the Venezuelan president Rómulo Betancourt, based on money from the national coffers, decides to buy 4 scraped Convair B-36 Peacemaker to United States, that, in those years, they had completely retired these planes due to their high maintenance cost and their great slowness.
B-36D in route to Venezuela
Although the shipment of the planes would already be an additional cost, because they did not fit on transport ships, and less on aircraft carriers, therefore, the delivery of the planes would be by air.
Although the Foreign Minister would know that the aircraft acquired were almost unnecessary (because these would make a very slight difference, because even if they were put in the air, and they caused serious damage to their targets, they would only be targets fixed, and could not carry out mass bombardments), These, being so large airplanes, would cause a great impact on the country for being so large and imposing. And also, because they were in the Caracas Air Base (located in the tropics) they would not require to be turned on in the winter (since it only reached the highlands area).
The names of these aircraft would be "El Verónica", "Gran Pepe", "Romulazo", and "El Gordo".
Finally,
These would be put in reserve in 1987 and by the 2000s, they would be put in aeronautical museums.
Due to the reduced number of strategic bombers that Latin American countries had in the 60s, and the almost non-existent air force that Venezuela had, the Venezuelan president Rómulo Betancourt, based on money from the national coffers, decides to buy 4 scraped Convair B-36 Peacemaker to United States, that, in those years, they had completely retired these planes due to their high maintenance cost and their great slowness.
B-36D in route to Venezuela
Although the shipment of the planes would already be an additional cost, because they did not fit on transport ships, and less on aircraft carriers, therefore, the delivery of the planes would be by air.
Although the Foreign Minister would know that the aircraft acquired were almost unnecessary (because these would make a very slight difference, because even if they were put in the air, and they caused serious damage to their targets, they would only be targets fixed, and could not carry out mass bombardments), These, being so large airplanes, would cause a great impact on the country for being so large and imposing. And also, because they were in the Caracas Air Base (located in the tropics) they would not require to be turned on in the winter (since it only reached the highlands area).
The names of these aircraft would be "El Verónica", "Gran Pepe", "Romulazo", and "El Gordo".
Finally,
These would be put in reserve in 1987 and by the 2000s, they would be put in aeronautical museums.
Jim Balaya
Banned
Bingo. The 109-E was THE variant that made a huge difference. It got 400 hp+ (!) and a neat gain of 70 kph in top speed, from 490 to 560 kph.
This was of uttermost importance, because it put at a big advantage over the D-520 and the BEF / AAS Hurricanes. At this point in history, only the spitfire Mk.1 was left to compete with the 109E.
And we know the exact moment when that variant apeared on the Western front: mid-September 1939.
Now reel back the 109 to the B / C / D variants... and weep. According to the performance specifications above, these variants would be well within reach of Curtiss H-75s, D-520s, and not too superior to MB-152s and MS-406s.
This meant, fundamentally, that in the 1936-1939 era, France had fighters able to kick the ass of LW 109B, 109C and 109D. Yet, when Munich come in August 1938, Armée de l'Air commander Vuillemein told Daladier (more or less) "we can't fight, they have 109s". (Facepalm)
The 860 hp MS-406 was hampered by its barn-door-drag radiator, among many others flaws. Now the D-520, even with only 50 hp+ was 10 times better.
The 12Y was mostly stuck in the "30" series around 900 hp. Future belonged to the 12Z at 1200 hp+ BUT there were also intermediate, boosted 12Y like the -49 which had 1000 hp.
Remember Turbomeca ? they started in 1938 with a "miracle compressor" that was to boost the 12Y power by 100 hp.
Main problem, as usual, was that French piston-engine makers were a bunch of jerks. G&R and HS, notably. Guess why in 1946 SNECMA was created...
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Vuillemin's quote makes sense because the MS 406 only entered service...in December 1938 (yes, a whopping 30 months after the first flight. Morane had serious problems).
At the time the best fighters France has are the 60-odd Spad 510s and the 120 Dewoitine 510s. Granted, both could work thanks to the maneuverability of the biplane and the greater service ceiling of all planes that allows them to start a fight from much higher, but that assumes that pilots took them high in the first place.
The D520 was still competitive with the Bf 109E because it isn't much slower but it has greater altitude performance, as well as some advantages in maneuverability.
Now, if you can get LN 161s instead of Morane 406s, and better yet if you can get them in service earlier than the Morane (which isn't impossible at all, Loire-Nieuport being a larger and more competent company)), you get an aircraft that in 1935-36 could achieve about 478kph at 4000m, and actually possibly a little more as we have no data on speed between 4000 and 500m. It seems it could exceed 480kph that way.
More importantly, it was among the fastest, if not THE fastest climber in the world at this time, with time to 7000m being 9min 41s, compared to 11min 7s for the Curtiss H75 or 18min (!) for the MS 406, and 12min to 8000m, similar to the Spifire Mk 1 bis. Time to 10 000m was a bit above 19min.
On top of that, it has an impressive practical ceiling of 11 000m, 1000m above the Bf 109E. These two characteristics make the LN 161 still relevant against the E in spite of a lower top speed, because it can exploit altitude instead.
More importantly, unlike the MS 406 which stayed in its 1936 configuration, the LN 161 was constantly refined and by 1938 was doing 496kph at 4000m (and possibly more between 4000 and 5000m), and gained a few seconds to altitude per each 1000m (so a minute or more when going to high altitude).
Had the LN 161 received thrusting exhausts like the British fighters or the D520 in 1939, as was likely to happen in an in-service 1939 LN 161, it would be close to 510kph.
It was also very easy to fly compared to the Bloch 150 series, and was a good firing platform.
The LN 161 is thus clearly an excellent competitor to German fighters even with its 860hp engine, matches the Hurricane in speed in spite of its weaker engine (which is normal because the Hurri was less structurally modern so had greater air resistance on the fuselage), and exceeds pretty much everything in climb rate. In theory it can even match the D520 if you put its engine in it, so it has quite a good development potential.
By the way, its successor was the CAO 200, and while it never got the intended engine and had some tail issues to fix, it would have been quite impressive. It also made use of welding.
We also know exact moment when the 109E was produced - end of
How bad the French fared in Zurich in 1939, per Wikipedia:
1937, le meeting de Zürich, une désillusion
L'armée de l'air envoie une délégation au meeting de Zürich, en juillet 1937, avec ses meilleurs chasseurs, les D.500, 501 et 510. L'épreuve du circuit des Alpes est une débâcle. Le Messerschmitt Bf109V8 vole à une moyenne de 388 km/h, les Avia B.534 de 370 à 360 km/h, le bombardier Dornier Do 17M V1 à 368 km/h et le meilleur français à 321 km/h... L'évènement est vécu comme une humiliation par les aviateurs, certains généraux dans le déni parlent d'une "hallucination collective" de leur part.
Le meilleur chasseur français, en service depuis à peine deux ans, se révèle pourtant incapable de rattraper (et d'intercepter...) les chasseurs et même les bombardiers allemands, voire les avions des puissances secondaires.
Le Messerschmitt Bf 109 souligne le retard technique et les lenteurs de l'aviation française. Cet avion, issu d'un concours de juin 1934, est en service en 1937.
In other words, the French monoplanes were worse than Czech biplanes - Czech were faster to introduce the ~850 HP HS 12Y engine in service than the French? Luckily, there were no I-16 and SB-2 at meeting.
We can only weep at the state of the Armee de'l Aire. In 1939, there was barely any D.520 in serivice, same for H-75. The MB 152 was under-perfomer.
France was not able to kick Luftwaffe's ass in 1938-39, not when D.500, 510 and biplanes were their main fighters, not when their bombers were competing in slowness.
Engine on MS-406 have had worse altitude performance than that on D.520 with it's big & efficient S/C, ditto vs. DB-601, let alone vs. Merlin III. No ejector exhausts = 10-15 km/h loss?
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Hurricane was not slow due to it's structure not being modern. It was slow due to being too big a fighter, in all 3 dimensions. At almost 260 sq ft, the wing was of barely smaller area of what Typhoon has gotten. Or, greater wing area than what 2-engined Whirlwind have, or that of the F8F. The radiator set-up was of 'airbrake' variety. Wing was also too thick, both in absolute terms and in thickess-to-chord ratio - 19% (compared with most of fighters of mid/late 1930s at 13-15%). The small height of the V12 engine was not utilized to an advantage, fuselage ended up too tall = adds drag = kills speed. Ejector exhausts were also of draggy variety (but then again they were better choice than no ejector exhausts). Crappy carburetor also kills speed (change of carbs on Spitfire was good for +10 mph and +1500 ft of ceiling).
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Jim Balaya
Banned
Frack, I have to acknowedge, did not realized the MS-406 entered service in December 1938 and the Curtiss H-75, in March 1939. I thought some were in service by the Munich / sudete crisis, but I was wrong. No suprise Vuillemin was a little depressed when talking with Daladier !
There was a very small period (spring / summer 1939) where these two aircraft could have hold their ground against the 109B/C/D, but the 109E was coming fast (lame pun assumed). And right from September 1939, and that's the moment when the war broke out, not before.
About the Hurricane: despite the (valid) critics and flaws in the post above, it matched the D-520 as one of the best fighter in the French campaign in May 1940, fighting 109E.
I mean, If I had to fight the 1940 campaign and pick a fighter to survive against 109E, my choice would be
- Hawker Hurricane
- Curtiss H-75
- Dewoitine D-520
In that order. Why ?
- the Hurricane hold its ground against 109E during the BoB, even if the Spitfire was prefered (Hurricane were send against bombers)
- H-75 versus D-520: lower performance for the former, but at least - IT WORKS. engine included.
There was a very small period (spring / summer 1939) where these two aircraft could have hold their ground against the 109B/C/D, but the 109E was coming fast (lame pun assumed). And right from September 1939, and that's the moment when the war broke out, not before.
About the Hurricane: despite the (valid) critics and flaws in the post above, it matched the D-520 as one of the best fighter in the French campaign in May 1940, fighting 109E.
I mean, If I had to fight the 1940 campaign and pick a fighter to survive against 109E, my choice would be
- Hawker Hurricane
- Curtiss H-75
- Dewoitine D-520
In that order. Why ?
- the Hurricane hold its ground against 109E during the BoB, even if the Spitfire was prefered (Hurricane were send against bombers)
- H-75 versus D-520: lower performance for the former, but at least - IT WORKS. engine included.
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This might be the single craziest entry in this thread I've ever seen. Congratulations.
A decent POD for getting the F401 engine (and as a result the F-14B/C) into production could be to have the Convair Model 200 be selected as the winner of the VFAX program instead of the Rockwell NR-356.
(my bold)
Care to elaborate the bolded part?
IIRC the H-75 was the most successful Allied fighter type during the BoF. But indeed Hurricane is a good choice, despite the 30 mph disadvantage vs. Bf 109E, and perhaps 10 mph disadvantage vs. Bf 110C.
Let me clarify:
Number of Bf 109Es on date of 31st August 1939 in Luftwaffe inventory was 631. Source: "German aircraft industry and production 1933-45", by Ferenc A. Vajda and Peter Dancey, page #49.
My mistake is to state that 109E entered production in late 1939, I'll edit the post.
Now your turn.
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Which is not to say that there were 631 serving with Luftwaffe squadrons. A large number would have been in depots of one kind or another.
We can slice this anyway we want.
It still stands that Luftwaffe both out-numbered and out-performed the French in 1939 and 1940 (while also using better tactics).
I'm not disputing that, merely pointing out that numbers of aircraft on strength are not the same as numbers actually available for operations.
Jim Balaya
Banned
When did the 109E entered production and hit squadron service ? I wanted to say that MS-406 and H-75 could have hold their ground against the LW and 109s as long as only B/C/D were in service.
Now if the -E hit service before November 1938 (MS-406) or H-75 (March 1939) then the Armée de l'Air was ALWAYS dominated, one way or another.
The gap never closed, even briefly.
Now if the -E hit service before November 1938 (MS-406) or H-75 (March 1939) then the Armée de l'Air was ALWAYS dominated, one way or another.
The gap never closed, even briefly.