Desperate for aircraft the Nationalist Chinese Air Force places an order for new fighters with a Canadian Company.
Alternate Aircraft of Nations
- Thread starter Count of Crisco
- Start date
One missed opportunity for France, regarding the French fighter program from 1930-1931:
- 28 Dewoitine 371 for the AdA ordered in 1935, only entered service in 1937 because of a very fragile wing. Unreliable Gnome-Rhone 14K engine, 930hp, 370kph tops.
- 20 Dewoitine 373 and 25 Dewoitine 376 naval fighters for the MN, about 1937 too, same engine but 380kph. 376's folding wings took an hour to fold back. Very fragile too.
- 60 Loire 46 fighters for the AdA, same unreliable GR 14K, 368kph and poor climb rate, some aircrafts sent to Spain performed very poorly. Delivered through late 36-37 after months of delays. Sacrificed too much for good visibility.
- 101 Dewoitine 500 and 157 Dewoitine 501 with HS 12X 690hp engine, 365kph (360 for D501 due to 20mm cannon). Max diving speed limited to 500kph. High ground effect that penalizes landing performance, dangerous stalling problems. Delivered between March 1935 and December 1936 it seems. 26min to 10,000m. 100kg/m2 wing loading.
- 120 Dewoitine 510 delivered from November 1936 to 1937. HS 12Ycrs 860hp engine, 395kph. Still mediocre aerodynamics.
- 60 Spad 510 biplanes, one of the best fighters of the program, can easily exceed 600kph in a dive, very low wing loading of 75 to 80 kg/m2. Can reach 372kph, slightly better climb rate at 25min 10s to 10 000m. Its small size and robustness could have made it a far better choice for a naval aircraft. Deliveries started early in 1936 and if it wasn't for strikes most aircrafts would have been delivered this year. However, it's procurement had been blocked for over NINE MONTHS because of fears of dangerous stalling, which proved wrong.
As you can see, this procurement was extremely inefficient. France had to operate two lines of engines that were difficult to maintain, and in the case of the GR 14K very unreliable, it had to operate 5 types of aircrafts, many of which had mediocre aerodynamics which limited their top speed and climb rate. Some were too fragile.
Yet, on top of procuring too few great Spad 510 that were blocked for 9 months, France also didn't procure the best aircraft of the program: the Mureaux 170.
This gull wing fighter clearly shows a better understanding of aerodynamics than Dewoitine (who abandonned high performance aircrafts for a time after a 1931 air contest) or Loire that was gimped by excessive visibility requirements.
With a 690hp HS 12X, it reached a whopping 380kph (only reached by aircrafts with over 200hp extra power), and got to 10,000m in a mere 23 minutes. It also proved really robust, far exceeding 600kph in a dive without a scratch or any vibration. Its only flaw was mediocre visibility at landing. Later on while other companies were tasked to make fighters with better aerodynamics or engines, Mureaux was asked to ruin its fighter with the Mureaux 180 two-seat fighter, with expectable poor performance.
IMO, this was a very missed opportunity: the AdA could instead have ordered only Mureaux 170 or a mix of Mureaux 170 and Spad 510, while the Aéronavale could get Spad 510s. France would then have very maneuverable, high speed fighters with the same engines and excellent climb rates, indeed good enough combined with a great service ceiling to still compete with early Bf 109s thanks to the height advantage.
As followups, France could then either order variants with the more powerful HS 12Ycrs (would push the Spad 510 to about 410kph), or even better Mureaux could go for a low wing mounting to solve the visibility issue during landing, and combined with the HS 12Y, possibly get an excellent competitor to the mediocre Morane 405/406 a year later.
- 28 Dewoitine 371 for the AdA ordered in 1935, only entered service in 1937 because of a very fragile wing. Unreliable Gnome-Rhone 14K engine, 930hp, 370kph tops.
- 20 Dewoitine 373 and 25 Dewoitine 376 naval fighters for the MN, about 1937 too, same engine but 380kph. 376's folding wings took an hour to fold back. Very fragile too.
- 60 Loire 46 fighters for the AdA, same unreliable GR 14K, 368kph and poor climb rate, some aircrafts sent to Spain performed very poorly. Delivered through late 36-37 after months of delays. Sacrificed too much for good visibility.
- 101 Dewoitine 500 and 157 Dewoitine 501 with HS 12X 690hp engine, 365kph (360 for D501 due to 20mm cannon). Max diving speed limited to 500kph. High ground effect that penalizes landing performance, dangerous stalling problems. Delivered between March 1935 and December 1936 it seems. 26min to 10,000m. 100kg/m2 wing loading.
- 120 Dewoitine 510 delivered from November 1936 to 1937. HS 12Ycrs 860hp engine, 395kph. Still mediocre aerodynamics.
- 60 Spad 510 biplanes, one of the best fighters of the program, can easily exceed 600kph in a dive, very low wing loading of 75 to 80 kg/m2. Can reach 372kph, slightly better climb rate at 25min 10s to 10 000m. Its small size and robustness could have made it a far better choice for a naval aircraft. Deliveries started early in 1936 and if it wasn't for strikes most aircrafts would have been delivered this year. However, it's procurement had been blocked for over NINE MONTHS because of fears of dangerous stalling, which proved wrong.
As you can see, this procurement was extremely inefficient. France had to operate two lines of engines that were difficult to maintain, and in the case of the GR 14K very unreliable, it had to operate 5 types of aircrafts, many of which had mediocre aerodynamics which limited their top speed and climb rate. Some were too fragile.
Yet, on top of procuring too few great Spad 510 that were blocked for 9 months, France also didn't procure the best aircraft of the program: the Mureaux 170.
This gull wing fighter clearly shows a better understanding of aerodynamics than Dewoitine (who abandonned high performance aircrafts for a time after a 1931 air contest) or Loire that was gimped by excessive visibility requirements.
With a 690hp HS 12X, it reached a whopping 380kph (only reached by aircrafts with over 200hp extra power), and got to 10,000m in a mere 23 minutes. It also proved really robust, far exceeding 600kph in a dive without a scratch or any vibration. Its only flaw was mediocre visibility at landing. Later on while other companies were tasked to make fighters with better aerodynamics or engines, Mureaux was asked to ruin its fighter with the Mureaux 180 two-seat fighter, with expectable poor performance.
IMO, this was a very missed opportunity: the AdA could instead have ordered only Mureaux 170 or a mix of Mureaux 170 and Spad 510, while the Aéronavale could get Spad 510s. France would then have very maneuverable, high speed fighters with the same engines and excellent climb rates, indeed good enough combined with a great service ceiling to still compete with early Bf 109s thanks to the height advantage.
As followups, France could then either order variants with the more powerful HS 12Ycrs (would push the Spad 510 to about 410kph), or even better Mureaux could go for a low wing mounting to solve the visibility issue during landing, and combined with the HS 12Y, possibly get an excellent competitor to the mediocre Morane 405/406 a year later.
Jim Balaya
Banned
Very interesting ! Many thanks, will digest all this. Note that the next generation was no better... the MS-405 / 406, aaargh. One competitor was the LN-160 series, and this one might have been France very own Hurricane - waiting for a French Spitfire to be found.
Note that Dewoitine lost nearly two years between the D-510 and the D-520, because of an ugly duck: the D-513. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dewoitine_D.513
This one is the 510 > 520 missing link and a complete, utter and miserable failure; a failure that allowed the -520 to be successful... but it also pushed it to November 1938, way, way too late.
(facepalm)
Then again, as you underlined some post up thread, there were so many systemic problems all across the french aircraft industry (and 30's France as whole) no "miracle aircraft" could have saved the Armée de l'Air a$$ in 1940.
Note that Dewoitine lost nearly two years between the D-510 and the D-520, because of an ugly duck: the D-513. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dewoitine_D.513
This one is the 510 > 520 missing link and a complete, utter and miserable failure; a failure that allowed the -520 to be successful... but it also pushed it to November 1938, way, way too late.
(facepalm)
Then again, as you underlined some post up thread, there were so many systemic problems all across the french aircraft industry (and 30's France as whole) no "miracle aircraft" could have saved the Armée de l'Air a$$ in 1940.
The absolute irony is that the Spad 510 beat MS 406 ass in testing precisely because of better maneuverability and rate of climb, while the MS 406 was not faster enough to go boom and zoom... LN 160 was not only excellent regarding speed and rate of climb, but it also already featured a structure that could be mass produced, and also was much quicker to refuel than the MS 406 (an extremely weird and unfortunate issue of the Morane).
And yes, Dewoitine clearly had problems with getting aerodynamics right, which I attribute to his pause after 1931. One can wonder how further ahead he would have been with some more experience in that period. The Dewoitine 500 was partially ruined by this requirement to have perfect visibility, as the connection between the wings and fuselage was too thin instead of being Karman-type. Costed about 20kph.
Morane had the same issue, as they learnt the wrong lessons from the failed MS-325. It had an excellent fuselage design that was light, but the visibility requirement forced them to use stupid huge masts to connect the wings to the fuselage. The wings were also too thick and too far ahead but that was not as glaring as this flaw:
The MS 406 instead kept the same heavy structure as the experimental MS-227, built on the obsolete-before-service MS 225.
Not sure how successful the Dewoitine D-520 actually was. Sure it was the best of the French built fighters but its handling can at best be described as difficult and at worst deadly to the unwary. It was also limited by the for the time underpowered engine.
For the French, several options:
- nick the early Bf 109 (Jumo-powered) and stick the HS 12Y engine on it by 1937
- same for I-16; re-engine it with a French radial engine by 1936
- Blenheim + HS 12Y, ASAP
- take a long, hard look at the Supermarine S6 and RR 'R' engine; actually, buy one or two complete S6 aircraft
- even just buying a few 'R' engines will show the French how the engine needs to be built, then copy it until 1945
- nick the early Bf 109 (Jumo-powered) and stick the HS 12Y engine on it by 1937
- same for I-16; re-engine it with a French radial engine by 1936
- Blenheim + HS 12Y, ASAP
- take a long, hard look at the Supermarine S6 and RR 'R' engine; actually, buy one or two complete S6 aircraft
- even just buying a few 'R' engines will show the French how the engine needs to be built, then copy it until 1945
Nah you don't need foreign airframes, just pick the good ones instead of going from blunder to blunder. For engines you need to start incentivizing 1000HP+ inlines and 1300HP+ radials from 1934 on, while increasing reliability requirements for the HS12Y and GR 14N series so they stop cheapening out on them. You pretty much the French govts from 1934 until 1936 to forget about the deflation policy and instead start spending that gold on structural investments and technology programs.
I remember reading on some secret projects forum threads that there were tests with further improved afterburning Speys and you could easily get some truly impressive performance, the kind that arguably makes TF 30 obsolete and is good enough to get a good powerplant in modernized F-111s or F-14s.
Also kind of a shame that Congress effectively screwed the USN over by cancelling the F401 turbofan and the associated 70's F-14B. The engine would likely have experienced the same problems as the F100 but nonetheless would have been a much better powerplant than the TF 30, and the F-14B fixed most of the problems with the F-14A, namely with an APU and major RAM improvements. The Tomcat really never was given a chance to prove itself and was stuck in an effectively pre-production configuration before the 80's F-14B and D.
Also kind of a shame that Congress effectively screwed the USN over by cancelling the F401 turbofan and the associated 70's F-14B. The engine would likely have experienced the same problems as the F100 but nonetheless would have been a much better powerplant than the TF 30, and the F-14B fixed most of the problems with the F-14A, namely with an APU and major RAM improvements. The Tomcat really never was given a chance to prove itself and was stuck in an effectively pre-production configuration before the 80's F-14B and D.
I've picked the I-16 and Bf 109 for a reason - those were the best airframes in mid/late 1930s (with Spitfire taking the torch by 1938-ish).
The RR 'R' was also picked for a reason - a no-nonsense engine capable for powers beyond 1000 HP without breaking the sweat (it also shows how do make a decent compressor).
There will be no 1300HP+ French radial unless someone forgets the endless tweaking of the 14K and 14N line (and forget the 14M alltogether, it just eats up design & production resources) and take a look at US practice of mid-1930s (= 3 bearings for 2-row radials, instead of just 2 - front and aft) and draw conclusions. French moved on 3 bearings design with G&R 14R, the excellent engine for all ww2 needs, but it was too late.
But yes, all of these juicy technical stuff need to receive goverment & mlilitary support by mid-1930s in order to have effect by 1939/40.
France could probably get hold of an I 16 by spreading a little gold around Republican Spain but getting their hands on a 109 B would be a challenge.
When did the Swiss get theirs? Maybe they could pinch one of them?
Per Wikipedia:
On 4 December 1937, during the Spanish Civil war, a Bf 109 A-0, marked 6–15, made an emergency landing behind Republican lines. The aircraft was recovered and tested. In January 1938 the aircraft was also evaluated by a French delegation.
Grated, this might be a bit too late for the French to copy the 109.
The first 109's probably wouldn't look too good compared to the MS-406. They were underpowered and inadequately armed.
The first 109's used by the Condor Legion with roughly 600hp Jumo engines and only 2 x 7.92 MGs.
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Indeed.
The French 109s will sport 30-40% more power (due to HS 12Y making ~850 HP at 3500-4000 m in second half of 1930s), and can have better armament. The best Jumo-powered 109s were good for 490+ km/h with 670 HP at 3.7 km, being faster than MS 406s with extra 200 HP.
Cryhavoc101
Donor
The Fairey-Blackburn Sea Battle TBR and Blackburn-Fairey Claymore
With Germanys refusal to ratify the AGNA in July 1936 Britain took a firmer stance towards Hitler's regime and began the rearmament process from 1936
As part of this process 2 designs effectively 'changed owner' and it is these 2 designs that we will be looking at on todays program
Both aircraft were designed by Fulmar - one intended for the Navy ended up being an 'Army cooperation Dive Bomber' and the other a Royal Navy 'multirole strike aircraft
The Fairey-Blackburn Sea Battle TBR had originally been intended to be an RAF bomber but with HMG's tougher stance on Nazi Germany the RAF received increased funding and the single Engine bomber order was cancelled in favour of bigger more capable twin engine planes such as the Whitley, Hampden and Wellington.
The issue was that one of the Shadow Factory's Austins along with Faireys themselves were expected to start producing the first Battle airframes in 1937 - it was around this time that the Fleet Air Arm was returned to the control of the Navy and the RN sought to leverage the Battle design as a multirole carrier strike plane for their new Illustrious class carriers.
This was deemed important as the Illustrious class could only carry 33 of these aircraft (in practice it could carry more)
The Swordfish which was just coming into service while an improvement over the Shark and earlier strike planes and well liked by its pilots was not quite what the Royal navy desired.
Using both company's expertise regarding carrier planes both Fairey and Backburn design teams worked together and modified the Battle into a folding wing aircraft capable of carrying a single Torpedo, or sea mine or up to 8 x 500 pound bombs (4 under each wing) and capable of carrying a 3rd crewman when operating in the recce role. 4 of the new MK 2 Browning .303 mgs was to be carried (2 per wing) each with 500 RPG to give the aircraft a secondary CAP capability and a Vickers K gun in the Observers position.
Capable of acting as a Torpedo bomber, Bomber, dive bomber (ad hoc in the Mk1), recce aircraft and with a secondary CAP ability the type gave the RN the capability to equip their carrier with just a single design
The Mk1 Sea Battle entered service in mid 1939 and had fully replaced the Swordfish by 1940 - with 350 made all by Fairey
Made famous by Ark Royal and Illustrious when they made a combined attack on the Italian fleet with 52 Aircraft on the night of 22/23 Oct 1940 sinking 5 Battleships and 3 heavy cruisers and damaging a number of other vessels, gutting the Italian Navy and handing the initiative firmly to the British in the Med
The MK2 Sea Battle, which represented the majority of this aircraft production entered service in 1941 differing little from the MK1 except making use of the then more powerful Merlin Engine of the day and a heavier armament of 4 x BSA/Molins 20 MM FFS cannon - with 90 RPG (which had famously equipped the Hurricanes and Spitfires during the Battle Britain the previous year) - deemed a far better anti bomber/anti snooper gun with its explosive shells where the .303 browning's had been found wanting. Despite the improved power of the new Engine the performance of the aircraft was little better than the MK 1 but it is noted that the MK 2 was nearly 500 pounds heavier due to the extra equipment carried and could launch with a heavier load of weapons and fuel. 1100 would be made by 1943 most by Fairey - 350 odd by Austin.
This mark of the aircraft was perhaps most famous for its role in first detecting and then sinking the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen during an attack in poor weather at the Denmark Straights in 1941 (one of the first such attacks of its type ever undertaken) and the night attack on the Kido Batai (by a mixed formation of RN and RAF Sea Battles operated from land bases) as it tried to attack ABDA forces in early 1942 resulting in heavy damage to both the Shokaku and Akagi which resulted in a shocked IJN command withdrawing the 1st Strike Fleet from the region (and leaving the IJN with just 4 fleet carriers for its fateful and disastrous 'meeting' with the 5 USN fleet carriers at the 3rd Battle of Wake Island later on that year)
The Aircraft it replaced the Swordfish might well have been little more than a footnote had it not been for the creation of the Army Co-operation Squadrons in 1938
These units were intended to provide the Army with the ability to provide artillery spotting, recon, and near battlefield support and interdiction missions with a direct chain of command to a given Corps HQ - initially several designs were intended to be operated but the RAF wanted to use a common tough aircraft capable of short take off and landing combined with the ability to survive long term 'rough conditions'
While Dive bombing had been frowned on by the RAF who had named it tellingly 'Drop Altitude bombing' during the 30s - a hard core of RAF dive bombing enthusiasts who had worked with other air forces during the 30s including one who managed to smuggle back a Swedish air force dive bombing sight managed to convince those same power that be to invest in a capable dive bomber.
When the requirement for Army Co-operation Squadrons was created only the Royal Navy had decent experience of dive bombing and at the time the only aircraft capable of it.
The Fairey Swordfish.
Also capable of STOL the Swordfish could carry up to 1500 pounds of bombs as well as capable of carrying a 3rd person for observation and liaison work.
The same 2 company's Fairey and Blackburn were asked to modify the design 'for land use' and created an even more robust design that they named the Blackburn-Fairey Claymore and the Aircraft was chosen to become the principle aircraft of the new Army Co-operation Squadrons.
Intended to only last until a 'better plane' could be introduced the type remained pretty much unchanged from 1938 and remained in service into late 43 when it was replaced with the single seat tornado fighter bomber.
In squadron use it became renowned for the units ability to find and 'bully' enemy artillery formations and while those same units often suffered heavy attrition in battle it was often deemed worthwhile. Its ability to be kept operational in austere forward operating strips became legendary as was its pilots renown for pressing home attacks in the face of heavy resistance.
Primarily built by Blackburn with a relative handful made at Faireys (who were flat out making the Sea Battles) - between them nearly 4000 airframes were built.
With Germanys refusal to ratify the AGNA in July 1936 Britain took a firmer stance towards Hitler's regime and began the rearmament process from 1936
As part of this process 2 designs effectively 'changed owner' and it is these 2 designs that we will be looking at on todays program
Both aircraft were designed by Fulmar - one intended for the Navy ended up being an 'Army cooperation Dive Bomber' and the other a Royal Navy 'multirole strike aircraft
The Fairey-Blackburn Sea Battle TBR had originally been intended to be an RAF bomber but with HMG's tougher stance on Nazi Germany the RAF received increased funding and the single Engine bomber order was cancelled in favour of bigger more capable twin engine planes such as the Whitley, Hampden and Wellington.
The issue was that one of the Shadow Factory's Austins along with Faireys themselves were expected to start producing the first Battle airframes in 1937 - it was around this time that the Fleet Air Arm was returned to the control of the Navy and the RN sought to leverage the Battle design as a multirole carrier strike plane for their new Illustrious class carriers.
This was deemed important as the Illustrious class could only carry 33 of these aircraft (in practice it could carry more)
The Swordfish which was just coming into service while an improvement over the Shark and earlier strike planes and well liked by its pilots was not quite what the Royal navy desired.
Using both company's expertise regarding carrier planes both Fairey and Backburn design teams worked together and modified the Battle into a folding wing aircraft capable of carrying a single Torpedo, or sea mine or up to 8 x 500 pound bombs (4 under each wing) and capable of carrying a 3rd crewman when operating in the recce role. 4 of the new MK 2 Browning .303 mgs was to be carried (2 per wing) each with 500 RPG to give the aircraft a secondary CAP capability and a Vickers K gun in the Observers position.
Capable of acting as a Torpedo bomber, Bomber, dive bomber (ad hoc in the Mk1), recce aircraft and with a secondary CAP ability the type gave the RN the capability to equip their carrier with just a single design
The Mk1 Sea Battle entered service in mid 1939 and had fully replaced the Swordfish by 1940 - with 350 made all by Fairey
Made famous by Ark Royal and Illustrious when they made a combined attack on the Italian fleet with 52 Aircraft on the night of 22/23 Oct 1940 sinking 5 Battleships and 3 heavy cruisers and damaging a number of other vessels, gutting the Italian Navy and handing the initiative firmly to the British in the Med
The MK2 Sea Battle, which represented the majority of this aircraft production entered service in 1941 differing little from the MK1 except making use of the then more powerful Merlin Engine of the day and a heavier armament of 4 x BSA/Molins 20 MM FFS cannon - with 90 RPG (which had famously equipped the Hurricanes and Spitfires during the Battle Britain the previous year) - deemed a far better anti bomber/anti snooper gun with its explosive shells where the .303 browning's had been found wanting. Despite the improved power of the new Engine the performance of the aircraft was little better than the MK 1 but it is noted that the MK 2 was nearly 500 pounds heavier due to the extra equipment carried and could launch with a heavier load of weapons and fuel. 1100 would be made by 1943 most by Fairey - 350 odd by Austin.
This mark of the aircraft was perhaps most famous for its role in first detecting and then sinking the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen during an attack in poor weather at the Denmark Straights in 1941 (one of the first such attacks of its type ever undertaken) and the night attack on the Kido Batai (by a mixed formation of RN and RAF Sea Battles operated from land bases) as it tried to attack ABDA forces in early 1942 resulting in heavy damage to both the Shokaku and Akagi which resulted in a shocked IJN command withdrawing the 1st Strike Fleet from the region (and leaving the IJN with just 4 fleet carriers for its fateful and disastrous 'meeting' with the 5 USN fleet carriers at the 3rd Battle of Wake Island later on that year)
The Aircraft it replaced the Swordfish might well have been little more than a footnote had it not been for the creation of the Army Co-operation Squadrons in 1938
These units were intended to provide the Army with the ability to provide artillery spotting, recon, and near battlefield support and interdiction missions with a direct chain of command to a given Corps HQ - initially several designs were intended to be operated but the RAF wanted to use a common tough aircraft capable of short take off and landing combined with the ability to survive long term 'rough conditions'
While Dive bombing had been frowned on by the RAF who had named it tellingly 'Drop Altitude bombing' during the 30s - a hard core of RAF dive bombing enthusiasts who had worked with other air forces during the 30s including one who managed to smuggle back a Swedish air force dive bombing sight managed to convince those same power that be to invest in a capable dive bomber.
When the requirement for Army Co-operation Squadrons was created only the Royal Navy had decent experience of dive bombing and at the time the only aircraft capable of it.
The Fairey Swordfish.
Also capable of STOL the Swordfish could carry up to 1500 pounds of bombs as well as capable of carrying a 3rd person for observation and liaison work.
The same 2 company's Fairey and Blackburn were asked to modify the design 'for land use' and created an even more robust design that they named the Blackburn-Fairey Claymore and the Aircraft was chosen to become the principle aircraft of the new Army Co-operation Squadrons.
Intended to only last until a 'better plane' could be introduced the type remained pretty much unchanged from 1938 and remained in service into late 43 when it was replaced with the single seat tornado fighter bomber.
In squadron use it became renowned for the units ability to find and 'bully' enemy artillery formations and while those same units often suffered heavy attrition in battle it was often deemed worthwhile. Its ability to be kept operational in austere forward operating strips became legendary as was its pilots renown for pressing home attacks in the face of heavy resistance.
Primarily built by Blackburn with a relative handful made at Faireys (who were flat out making the Sea Battles) - between them nearly 4000 airframes were built.
Just get Loire-Newport 161 in production instead of MS.406. For bombers use Amiot 340 instead of redesigning it into Amiot 354.
In May 1940 a freighter carrying a squadron of Fokker DXXI fighters to the Dutch East Indies is damaged in a collision and forced to put into an Irish Port. The aircraft are seized and put into service by the Irish Air Corps,
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