Alternate Aircraft of Nations

Rickshaw

R.A.N Grumman Tracer AEW

When the Royal Australian Navy took delivery of an older ESSEX class carrier from the US Navy in 1969, they also took on an airgroup of aircraft. Grumman Trackers, Tracers and Vought Crusaders and Douglas Sky Hawks. The Trackers were ASW assets, the Tracers AEW aircraft and the Crusaders were fighters and the Sky Hawks strike aircraft.

This model depicts a Grumman Tracer in 1982. It is flying as a member of 817 squadron, part of the complement of HMAS AUSTRALIA. In 1981 the decision had been taken to change the radial engines for turbo-prop engines just had occurred for the Trackers. This enabled commonality to be continued. The aircraft had a substantially greater range and higher speeds and altitudes. With revised avionics the range at which it could detect a fighter was also much greater.

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The Kit

The kit is a resin one from Brazil. It was made of the toughest resin I have encountered. The Turboprops were from Germany. A great deal of work went into fitting the turboprops while changing it to one with the wings folded was also the result of a great deal of work. It is not a kit I would recommend. I was aware that there was also a Mach-2 kit but had built several of those before and didn't think it would be worth the effort. Appears I bit off more than I could chew! Painted with a hairy stick and the decals came from the spares box.
 
JEF_300

JEF_300

The Curtis P-53 is a cool fighter that never even made it to prototyping. It was based upon the P-40 design, with a low drag laminar flow wing and a Continental XIV-1430-3 "inverted vee" engine. It was cancelled along with it's engine, and design work on it was transferred over to the P-60 program, which would instead use any other engine they could get their hands on.

I like the inverted vee look, and the P-40 style gear. It's kind of like and American BF-109 in some ways.

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James Ricker

M79 said:
Rebuilding Cold War early jet airframes with more modern engines/alloys/avionics for use as COIN aircraft

Start with an F-86F Sabre, swap its original engine with a TF-34 from the A-10 (improves thrust from 5970 lb/f to 9275 lb/f [+55%], TSFC of 0.363 vs 1.014 [even increasing thrust overall, fuel efficiency increase of 1.5x or more?], and TF-34 is about 500kg lighter), replace the six M2 machine guns at .50 caliber with a pair of modern 20mm aircraft cannons (up-gunning it to a GAU-13 would take much more work...but...), add more pylons, perhaps lighten the frame with more modern aluminum alloys and/or carbon fiber, modernize the radar & avionics et al. Not meant to be supersonic, and would require some re-engineering for the different pylons and dimensions of the engine, but its ATL capabilities would be something to think about, especially if starting from an existing aircraft would be more cost-effective than developing a new one.
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The F-86 could go supersonic in a shallow dive, with 55% more thrust you're going to be able to hit Mach 1 in level flight
The TF-34 is also more compact and fuel efficient than the original engine, that would give the F-86 greater range with no weight penalties.
 
Virginia Liberal

Virginia Liberal

An Alternate American Medium Bomber the Built by Bell Aircraft based upon their prototype YFM-1 Airacuda heavy fighter (which was almost as big as a bomber anyways I give you the B-21 Bombacuda It still retains the 37mm cannons in the front of the Nacelles. Bomb load would be equal to the B-25.

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M79

James Ricker said:
The F-86 could go supersonic in a shallow dive, with 55% more thrust you're going to be able to hit Mach 1 in level flight
The TF-34 is also more compact and fuel efficient than the original engine, that would give the F-86 greater range with no weight penalties.
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In theory with that engine swap and a few other changes it may be plausible to replace the .50 cal guns with a modernized GAU-13 and maybe 700 rounds...maybe slow the gun's firing down to make it a viable anti-air weapon as well...
 
Virginia Liberal

Virginia Liberal

M79 said:
In theory with that engine swap and a few other changes it may be plausible to replace the .50 cal guns with a modernized GAU-13 and maybe 700 rounds...maybe slow the gun's firing down to make it a viable anti-air weapon as well...
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Weren't the F86s upgunned to 20mm cannon during the Korean War ?
 

Rickshaw

Virginia Liberal said:
Weren't the F86s upgunned to 20mm cannon during the Korean War ?
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After. The CA27 Avon Sabre was perhaps the fastest of the Sabres. It flew regularly at Mach .95 and was armed with twin 30mm ADEN revolver cannon.

Here is a variation on it's design.

The CAC CA-30 Sabre-Dingo Mk.33

In 1951, CAC obtained a licence agreement to build the F-86F Sabre. In a major departure from the North American blueprint, it was decided that the CA-27 would be powered by a licence-built version of the Rolls-Royce Avon R.A.7, rather than the General Electric J47. In theory, the Avon was capable of more than double the maximum thrust and double the thrust-to-weight ratio of the US engine. This necessitated a re-design of the fuselage, as the Avon was shorter, wider and lighter than the J47. Because of the engine change the type is sometimes referred to as the Avon Sabre. To accommodate the Avon, over 60 percent of the fuselage was altered and there was a 25 percent increase in the size of the air intake. Another major revision was in replacing the F-86F's six machine guns with two 30mm ADEN cannon, while other changes were also made to the cockpit and to provide an increased fuel capacity.

The prototype aircraft (designated CA-26 Sabre) first flew on 3 August 1953. The production aircraft were designated the CA-27 Sabre and first deliveries to the Royal Australian Air Force began in 1954. The first batch of aircraft were powered by the Avon 20 engine and were designated the Sabre Mk 30. Between 1957 and 1958 this batch had the wing slats removed and were redesignated Sabre Mk 31. These Sabres were supplemented by 20 new-build aircraft. The last batch of aircraft were designated Sabre Mk 32 and used the Avon 26 engine, of which 69 were built up to 1961.

In 1955, the RAAF issued a request for an all weather fighter. CAC, responded with a version of their Sabre, modelled on the F-86D “Dog” Sabre. It was equipped with a radar and chin intake. However, the RAAF did not like the use of either the air-to-air rockets which constituted the primary armament or that there was a single crewman. CAC taking a leaf from North American's book, suggested combining the nose of the F-86D with the cockpit of the TF-86 and the fuselage of the CA-27 Avon Sabre. The CA-30 “Dingo” Sabre was created. However, it was quickly realise that more modifications than were initially thought necessary were required. A larger wing was needed and a more powerful version of the Rolls Royce Avon jet engine. The first prototype rolled out of the CAC factory in July 1956. It displayed superb performance, as good as the CA-27 and after trials proved it was shown to be capable of intercepting targets at night or in bad weather.

Armed, as was the CA-27 Avon Sabre, initially with two 30mm ADEN cannon, it was to be later equipped with up to four AIM-9B Sidewinder air-to-air missiles. The RAAF ordered an initial squadron. The Royal Australian Navy who were looking to reequip their fighter squadron aboard it's aircraft carriers with a more modern, radar equipped jet fighter, rather than it's existing Sea Fury planes asked CAC if they could adapt the Avon Dingo to shipboard use. Again drawing on the resources of North American, they decided to utilise the design of FJ-2 Fury's wing, a navalised version of the F-86. It could be folded, decreasing its width and allowing the fighter to be stowed easily below decks in the aircraft carriers' hangar.

So was born the Royal Australian Navy's CA-31 Sabre “Sea Dingo”. It served on the RAN's Carriers until 1969 when it was replaced by the A-4G Skyhawk.

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The Model

Many years ago, when I first got into Whiffing, I attempted to model the Sea Dingo. I used a standard Sabre fuselage, a Fuji T-1 trainer cockpit and canopy and an F-86D nose. I cut the cannon from an Avon Sabre fuselage and faired them into the new fuselage. I was never pleased with the model. It just didn't look, well, “right” to me.

Later I bought an Airmodel vacuform F-86 four pack conversion set. It included the noses of an TF-86, an F-86D, an F-86K and an Avon Sabre. Ah-ha! I thought to myself, I can use these, to make a proper Sabre Dingo. It languished in my spares box for a couple of years until I found a cheap Emhar FJ-2 Fury on Ebay. As this was to be a Sea Dingo, the Fury was perfect.

So, I finally found the time for a largish conversion job. First I assembled the Fury kit and cut it's nose off, just behind the cockpit. I then added the TF-86 cockpit to it. I then added the Avon Sabre's nose and cut it off just in front of the gun ports. To that, I then added the F-86D's nose and chin intake. My goodness, what a long aircraft you have there! I then moved the Fury's wings forward by about 10mm. This allowed the balance between the front and the stern to be fixed. The model was painted with a hairy stick and the decals came from the spares box. It looks a lot better than the previous attempt, I can assure you.
 

Monk78

Count of Crisco said:
This is inspired by the long running alternate warships of nations thread and works fairly similar to that long running discussion.

You can post your scenarios and alternate aircraft here, as well as post any basic questions regarding plausibility of certain scenarios, viability of aircraft studies, effects of your aircraft being introduced in place of their historical counterparts. That sort of thing.

If you have any general or specific questions ask them here. What was the bombload of the Heinkel 111? Ask it here, wonder how competetive Italian aircraft were in 1940? Ask it here. Wonder what the result of the Dutch airforce having more Fokker D.XXI on hand at the time of the German invasion? This is the place.

If your timeline has a historical airforce adopting a different aircraft than they did historically then this is the place. Have a scenario where the HE-100 was adopted by the Luftwaffe over the BF-109 this is the place to test it. A scenario where the CAC Boomerang is built with a more capable engine, this is the place.

You want to list the aircraft that your alternate nation adopts, both your own original aircraft types as well as actually built examples, this is the place.
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A unified and neutral Germany after ww2 adopts the Saab Viggen in 1970s
 
Virginia Liberal

Virginia Liberal

So I was thinking about the issue some have raised with the Queen Elizabeth Class Carriers not having a dedicated Command Control Aircraft so I present the EMV-22 Owl. Seeing as the Osprey is replacing the C-3 Greyhound for the US Navy., lets see if it can me made into a jack of all trades.
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Count of Crisco

Count of Crisco

Whats the possibility of getting a twin engined aircraft in service aboard a carrier in 1940? I'm thinking for use as a torpedo bomber and recce aircraft. Twin Merlins, and the ability to carry a 18 inch torpedo or a 1,000 pound bomb load. With good range, speed, and performance.
 
Count of Crisco

Count of Crisco

As regards the my prior question I suppose I should give some background.
Size of the aircraft is not such an issue as in the RN, USN, or IJN as the operating nation does not have many legacy 1920s carriers. So the lifts, hangar heights, and catapult strength can be built to suit. While primarily an naval program intended to develop a torpedo and recce aircraft for its carriers the airforce has also expressed a desire to acquire the aircraft as a light bomber and ground attack aircraft.

As for engines the nation in question has domestic engine production already going, with both indigenous, and license built foreign designs available. Notably the Kestrel has been in use by the air force for some years in aircraft such as the Fokker CX and a license built version of the Fiat Cr.32 fighter. This engine was being developed for greater horsepower, and the rights to build the Merlin were gained in 1939. In fact the Merlin is already being used for a family of pusher configuration aircraft by the navy, so it would be desired to use the Merlin if possible. Radial engines are also available if desirable.

What is desired is a two or three man plane, pilot, navigator/bombardier and possibly a gunner. The aircraft should have a range of between 1,000-1,200 miles and the capacity to travel at high speed, it being felt that a high speed was desired more than a major defensive armament to outrun or avoid enemies. The plane was intended to carry either a 18 inch torpedo, a 1,000 pound bomb, two 500 pound bombs, or added fuel tanks. For guns a powerful armament of 20mm cannon and 12mm machine guns are desired, though other weapons could be mounted if possible.

The plane must also be sturdy, capable of surviving carrier landings, taking damage, and in a land based role operating in primitive forward air bases. It is also desired that the plane be simple to maintain and easy to fly even for a comparatively novice pilot.
 

James Ricker

Count of Crisco said:
Whats the possibility of getting a twin engined aircraft in service aboard a carrier in 1940? I'm thinking for use as a torpedo bomber and recce aircraft. Twin Merlins, and the ability to carry a 18 inch torpedo or a 1,000 pound bomb load. With good range, speed, and performance.
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Probably not very good
the big problem with twin engine aircraft at the time was they were larger than single engine aircraft
Aircraft carriers had to deal with limited space in the hangar. Typically you could carry 3 single engine aircraft in the space needed for 2 twin engined aircraft
A twin engine aircraft would have to have more than 50% the payload of a single engine aircraft to make up for the extra space it took in the hangar deck
 
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