Actually, no. The Shah was always interested in the F-14 because of the Phoenix AAM, and it was McAir that insisted on the air show at Andrews AFB during a state visit by the Shah. The Grumman demo team put on a show, and the rest was history.
Alternate Aircraft Acquisitions
- Thread starter Petike
- Start date
Well seeing as I did a UK one:
Luftwaffe
Do19 - as production alternative to Do17 (which means little or no Fw-200).
Me-110 - as a light-bomber alternative to the Do17
Fw-187 - as 'heavy' fighter alternative to Me-110
Then in the aftermarth of the French defeat
Bre-690 - replaces the Hs-123 for Close-Support
Luftwaffe
Do19 - as production alternative to Do17 (which means little or no Fw-200).
Me-110 - as a light-bomber alternative to the Do17
Fw-187 - as 'heavy' fighter alternative to Me-110
Then in the aftermarth of the French defeat
Bre-690 - replaces the Hs-123 for Close-Support
The only one of these that seems to be a good choice for Germany is the Fw 187, since both the Fw 187 and Bf 110 were similar in basic concept (fast, heavy fighter), and by all logic, the Fw 189 would have fullfilled the need for a long-range escort fighter and attacker in the Battle of Britain far better than the larger and heavier Bf 110, especially if it retained its original single-seat layout.
The Do 19 was not a technological alternative to the Do-17, so if Dornier was instructed to develop the Do 19 as a production heavy bomber instead of the fast light/medium bomber Do 17, the utlimate result might have been to deprive the Germans of a very versatile design that, it its later Do 17 and Do 217 developments functioned well in a variety of bombing, maritime attack, recon, and heavy fighter roles, in exchange for a heavy bomber that was representative of the same technological era that produced the Armstrong-Whitworth Whitely and would have been obsolescent by 1941-42. True, the Do 19 might have been a better airframe for adapting as a maritime recon-bomber than the Fw 200, but even that is questionable (plus, see the P.108 below).
Regarding the Bf 110 (and its near cousin the Bf 162), it seems to me that it would more likely have been considered an alternative to the Ju 88 than the Do 17. Given the fact that the Ju 88 and its sucessors was arguably the best overall warplanes employed by the Third Reich, this would be a big mistake.
To be honest, I am not familiar with the Bre-690, but it one wants to consider the adoption of foreign types instead of German designs, why not consider ordering or licence-building the Italian Piaggio P.108 - a modern four engined heavy bomber that could have been in Luftwaffe service by late 1941/1942. Far more capable than the Fw 200 and far more reliable than the He 177.
Some have suggested that the A6M might have been useful as a long range escort fighter to supplement the Bf 109 for Germany during the battle of Britain. Problem is, the Zero was only being introduced in Japanese service in late 1940, and there is no chance sufficient numbers would be available to make any difference until 1942, and by this time the A6M (any model) would have been thoroughly outclassed by current model Spits and the new Typhoon in the type of aerial warfare then facing the Luftwaffe.
How about the Dornier Do 19, Ural Bomber. Would a fleet of these been better for the Luftwaffe in the night Blitz on Britain in 1940?
NothingNow
Banned
The P.108 or CANT Z.1014 would need much better engines though, like BMW 801s or Jumo 211s to match the performance of the Junkers Ju 290.
Producing the Bloch MB.162 B.5 for the Luftwaffe would be a better idea, since it's closer in performance to the Heavy bombers used by the allies, and much less vulnerable to interception thanks to it's speed and service ceiling.
Really?
In a check of Wikipedia (yes, I know...) the P.108 and Ju 290 look fairly equivalent. Roughly same maximum speed and offensive load capability, with the Ju-290 having a substantially longer range while the P-108 having a much higher operational ceiling. The P.108 was available in 1941/42 and was designed as a bomber. The only Ju 290 that was ever produced with any offensive load capability (the Ju 290 A-7) wasn't produced until 1944. If the Germans wanted and needed a reliable heavy bomber, the P.108 is the only likely option that could have affected the war in any meaningful way, with or without better engines.
Yes, but there would be fewer of them. Also, as I opined above, the Do 19 would have been virtually obsolete in 1940-41. I agree, though. IF your key to winning WW2 is to win the Battle of Britain, then having a sizeable force of obsolescent long range heavy bombers (and good escorts, like Fw 187s) would be mighty helpful. Problem is, by the time the night Blitz was begin, Germany had already lost the BoB. Now, if you used larger numbers of smaller bombers and fighter bombers to attack point targets like airfields, factories, radar stations, etc. and supplemented this with Do 17s bombing at night against urban centers and more distant industrial targets you might get somewhere.
NothingNow
Banned
Range is a very important figure for a bomber (especially since weight is weight, and trading fuel for an increased bomb-load is standard practice.)
Particularly if it's supposed to be serving as a patrol aircraft as well.
But the MB.162 B.5 is still the best option, given it's superior performance to both.
If The Do 19 had been adopted for Luftwaffe service then I would suspect that engine upgrades etc would have neen applied by 1939, Also with a succesful 4 engined heavey what else my the fertile German areonaurucal minds produced? IMHO the Death of Major-General Wever in 1936 was a very fortuitous event for the Allies.
Well, this opens up a whole argument on which I can argue both sides. To be the Devil this time, one can argue that Wever's death was a Godsend. Instead of wasting millions of Reichsmarks and tons of sheet aluminum building a fleet of heavy bombers that would have been obsolescent in 1940 when most needed, a decision was made to mass produce 3-4 times as many medium and light bombers with much greater overall utility, especially in the East. Also, Wever's sucessors didn't cancel work on heavy bombers. They just realized that both the Ju 89 and Do 19, neither of which was particular modern in concept, would be a waste of effort at the time and developed the Heavy "Bomber A" program for a more modern heavy bomber. It is not their fault that the product of the Bomber A program was the He 177 which was delayed and virtually a failure.
I did say in 'production' terms the Do19 could've been an alternative to the Do17 - I think during the BoB the Lw had in the region 300 Do17/215s, which could give the Lw 120 Do19 (two for five).
Besides the Do17 never looked like a 'bomber' not for nothing was it called the flying pencil.
The Me/bf-110 was originally designed as a light-bomber (similar to the Potez 630), but that part of the spec was deleted. Very surprised you think it could have been an alternative the Ju-88.
Yes, the Piaggio P.108 in the Lw would've been interesting, as a follow-up to the Do-19, or as others have mentioned the MB-162.
What about them not getting the Mirage in the first place. Oz is a large country while the Mirage is a small, short range fighter, so I was thinking maybe they buy the F-4 Phantom as it was considered alongside the Mirage and F-104. They loved their Phantoms IOTL so I don't think getting them earlier is too much of a stretch, and they would have seen combat over Vietnam unlike the situation with the Mirage. It was pretty expensive and I don't know if they could have afforded it though.
The Royal Navy was the first international customer for the Phantom, they looked at it in 1964 and ordered it in 1965. The RAAF ordered the Mirage were ordered in 1963 and first arrived in 1964, which is probably a bit early for us to look at the Phantom. In addition we ordered the F111 in 1963 and expected to get it in about 1969, so by conventional wisdom we had no need for the Phantom.
Just as a matter of interest the reason the RAAF wanted the Avon wasn't just commonality with Sabre and Canberra, apparently the Avon Mirage could fly Darwin to Singapore nonstop which the standard Mirage IIIE couldn't do when we were looking at it. That and that French miscalculated the Aus pound as the same as the UK pound, and when they found out they were different the price suddenly dropped. We also paid part of the bill in wheat, like we did with the RBS70 SAM from Sweden.
Just as a matter of interest the reason the RAAF wanted the Avon wasn't just commonality with Sabre and Canberra, apparently the Avon Mirage could fly Darwin to Singapore nonstop which the standard Mirage IIIE couldn't do when we were looking at it. That and that French miscalculated the Aus pound as the same as the UK pound, and when they found out they were different the price suddenly dropped. We also paid part of the bill in wheat, like we did with the RBS70 SAM from Sweden.