Alternate Aircraft Acquisitions
- Thread starter Petike
- Start date
gloster meteor mk3
Banned
could a black hawk land on a oil rig? if so then the black hawk instead of the super puma.
I like the idea as well (no pressure or anything Petike, but I'd love it and might "borrow it"). Seeing the Silver Swallows with them would be fantastic
For the Blackhawk it was on the table for the AW139 buy (bloody Bertie and his "too military for the Air Corps"
), Maybe if you had the Air Corps retaining the Coast Guard role they might pick up some US Coastguard Jayhawk types and that grows into a buy instead of the AW139.For the POD I suggested though the Blackhawk would be too big for the Eithne's, the Panther is a different variant of the Dolphin that did serve on her.
Maybe instead with the Troubles heating up in the 70's (fallout from the Dublin and Monaghan bombings perhaps) and the entry into the EU (who funded the Aoife's) an agreement is made with Italy for a couple of 212 Huey's for troop movement and border operations (due to the period the Lynx is out of the question). The navy gets agreement for more in the 80's when the Eithne or Eithne's get built. Continued UN operations increase demand for them and the Air Corps duty for Med evac gets put on a more formal footing with some medevac variants being bought for both domestic and international operations. Replacements for the SAR's as well perhaps?
You again avoid the horrible situation that the Air Corps gets itself into time after time of buying niche equipment, while getting a platform that has international support.
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Does anyone operate them as Civilian aircraft? that would depend more on the companies that fly the oil platform missions I'd bet.
I would say yes they could the Irish Coast Guard landed the new S-92 on one of the West Coast platforms recently to refuel to launch a long distance evac from a cruise ship. They are larger and heavier, so there's nothing that would automatically stop it.
gloster meteor mk3
Banned
thanks Sparky. IM thinking on the super puma crash that killed four recently.
A few years ago Kyle started a discussion on the Folland Sea Gnat
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=210199&highlight=Folland+Sea+Gnat
One TL idea I'm toying with (not this as the PoD by the way) has the FAA go with this plane (seeing as the Gnat now has a sting this type is referred to as the Sea Wasp) instead of the Phantom. Users include the RN, RCN, RCAF (denavalised version instead of the F-5) RAN, Indian Navy and Airforce (who had previously used militarised versions of the original Gnat trainer) and Netherlands Navy.
This has several important knock on effects with other air craft procurements. The Rolls Royce Spey engines, originally intended for the TSR 2 are now used in a licence build of the General Dynamics F 111 Aardvark (used by both the RAF and the RAAF ITTL).
With the RN are more than satisfied with the Sea Wasp as a Light Fighter and don't go through the ridiculous process of trying to turn the Hawker P.1154 into an interceptor.
The increased sales of the Sea Wasp and Buccanneer means that several navies replace their British Light carriers with a single Essex class, encouraging Britain to invest in their own carrier program. Spared the expense of phantomising the Ark Royal, both carriers have a ore modest modernisation for the smaller fighter, allowing both carriers to last until the mid to late 70s, when they are replaced by a ship based on the design proposed by the CVV study. The airwing eventually consists of the Hawker P.1154 Osprey andthe Franco-British AFVG fighter. Efforts at modernising the latter in the late 90s persuade the USN to go along with the proposals to modernise/upgrade their own F 14s.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=210199&highlight=Folland+Sea+Gnat
One TL idea I'm toying with (not this as the PoD by the way) has the FAA go with this plane (seeing as the Gnat now has a sting this type is referred to as the Sea Wasp) instead of the Phantom. Users include the RN, RCN, RCAF (denavalised version instead of the F-5) RAN, Indian Navy and Airforce (who had previously used militarised versions of the original Gnat trainer) and Netherlands Navy.
This has several important knock on effects with other air craft procurements. The Rolls Royce Spey engines, originally intended for the TSR 2 are now used in a licence build of the General Dynamics F 111 Aardvark (used by both the RAF and the RAAF ITTL).
With the RN are more than satisfied with the Sea Wasp as a Light Fighter and don't go through the ridiculous process of trying to turn the Hawker P.1154 into an interceptor.
The increased sales of the Sea Wasp and Buccanneer means that several navies replace their British Light carriers with a single Essex class, encouraging Britain to invest in their own carrier program. Spared the expense of phantomising the Ark Royal, both carriers have a ore modest modernisation for the smaller fighter, allowing both carriers to last until the mid to late 70s, when they are replaced by a ship based on the design proposed by the CVV study. The airwing eventually consists of the Hawker P.1154 Osprey andthe Franco-British AFVG fighter. Efforts at modernising the latter in the late 90s persuade the USN to go along with the proposals to modernise/upgrade their own F 14s.
Yeah the supersonic P.150 is one of my favourite what if aircraft as well. Assuming that enlarging the aircraft and engines didn't provide too many problems all you would need to do was convert any of the remaining analogue systems to digital and look at a couple of internal problems, IIRC they sometimes had a tendency to leak hydraulic fluids on occasion but I can't see that being too much of a challenge to put right. Funnily enough all the new systems for the Tornado were tested in Buccaneers so they would have certainly fitted, possibly apocryphal but that was what some of the pilots said should be done when asked what they thought of the new Tornado and systems.
One of the problems with the Gnat was the designer Petter himself, apparently he had a bit of an attitude and abrasive style so managed to annoy most of the senior RAF types which in turn made them not all that receptive right from the off about the aircraft. The Gnat was actually in the running in the early 1950s for a NATO requirement for a light tactical strike fighter with rough field capability which would have entailed fitting it with low pressure tyres and a few minor changes. Petter however thought that the design of the Gnat was perfect and refused to make any modifications to it, that combined with it not having RAF backing thanks to him annoying everyone over there meant that the Fiat G.91 won instead when the Gnat was the only aircraft that actually met the requirements that had been set out. If you can somehow get Petter to not be such as ass or simply have someone beat him around the head with a clue-by-four until he sees sense then that could get Folland a number of possible extra orders, which means more cash for future development.
I'm still not wholly convinced that the FAA would go for it though, the RAF and FAA have always seemed to prefer larger more high-tech aircraft than smaller lighter ones like other countries. Unless they're really running up against space constraints, and the F-4K Phantoms showed how far they were willing to go to avoid what they saw as taking a step down, I'd need a lot of convincing to see them choosing it.
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As you said, the G.91 didn't meet the specifications and the Gnat did, but it didn't. It required the fitment of oversized tires which didn't fit the design or the design philosophy. Just try to imagine a military procurement official approving the cheapest and simplest solution to a requirement. Anyway, the G.91 went on to establish milestones in mediocrity.
Please don't be so harsh on poor Teddy. He might have been right.
The P.150 would have been supersonic, however as Red Flag, Maple Flag and a good number of other exercises proved the Buccaneer S.2B was very survivable. The Gyron Junior engines of the S.1 were a bit anaemic and underpowered, but I'm not aware of any major problems with the Spey on the S.2.
It has been said that the only true replacement for a Buccaneer is another Buccaneer.
I suspect that had the RAF procured the P.150 there would have been no MRCA/Tornado as we know it today. The only thing that was missing from both the @ S.2 and P.150 was an internal gun, which is something the Tornado does have.There was actually no reason that Buccaneers could not be in service today, never mind the P.150, other than financial ones. AFAIK there was nothing wrong with their airframes, but they really did deserve a proper upgrade with digital avionics. If the Cold War hadn't ended when it did they probably would have continued on beyond 2000.
I can't actually think of an aircraft that was more mediocre. It even makes things like the Vautour and Scimitar look racey.
Finland buys F-16s instead of F/A-18s in the early 90's. Originally the competition had been between Dassault Mirage 2000, General Dynamics F-16 and Saab 39 Gripen as one of the requirements had been that a new plane should be single-engine. However, at some point it was decided that there should be an exception with F-18 and it also was taken into the competition. F-16 was probably the strongest competitor due to its price but at the end F-18 was chosen.
Interestingly, Yeltsin also offered Finland MiG-29s and MiG-31s almost for free but choosing those planes was impossible for political reasons.
Interestingly, Yeltsin also offered Finland MiG-29s and MiG-31s almost for free but choosing those planes was impossible for political reasons.
Nick P
Donor
Yes. The RAF fitted about 90 Hawk T1A with the ability to carry and fire Sidewinders in the 1980s, relying on radar guidance from Nimrods or Tornado.
Finland fitted theirs with Sidewinders or Russian R60 anti-air missiles.
BAE sold over 60 Hawk 200 (the single seat dedicated fighter version) to Indonesia, Malaysia and Oman.
Maybe the RAAF would have been better keeping and getting more F-4 Phantoms in the 1970s instead of the F-111s?
If the Cold War had continued beyond 1989 would the RAF have seriously looked at the F-117?
Was an export of the F-117 ever a viable option? If the Cold War had continued you'd see the RAF's main spending going on the Eurofighter surely? Maybe get the something like StormShadow fitted and operational earlier?
Phantoms Galore
Canada, Australia, Britain
With the F-4K purchase coming along in Britain, McDD offers Canada the option to build the Spey Phantom under license by Canadair for both the Canadian and British services. They accept the offer and choose the Phantom instead of the F-104. Australia meanwhile was looking for a new fighter and was looking at the Mirage III, but McDD quickly offered them a part in the F-4K procurement with locally assembly included. Seeing the advantages of the Phantoms range and payload as well as local production, they accept the offer. The Canadair built airframes are delivered to GAF for final assembly with CAC building airframe components and the Spey under license.
Germany
Early in the tender for the new German fighter aircraft, word gets out about Lockheed bribing Franz Josef Strauss for the contract. Lockheed is immediately banned from the tender and fined for bribery. Italy and the Netherlands also ban Lockheed from their aircraft tenders after hearing about this. McDD offers the F-4C but says it won't be ready until 1963, so in the meantime the US offers the Luftwaffe the F-5A as a stopgap until the Phantom is ready. This allows Luftwaffe pilots to get valuable training in a supersonic aircraft so that the transition to the F-4 is much easier. The F-4C is built under license by a consortium comprising Fokker, Fiat, SABCA, Dornier and Messerschmidt with the J-79 built by MTU and Fiat.In addition to Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, and Belgium the European built Phantoms are delivered to Turkey, Norway, Greece, Spain, and Denmark.
Canada, Australia, Britain
With the F-4K purchase coming along in Britain, McDD offers Canada the option to build the Spey Phantom under license by Canadair for both the Canadian and British services. They accept the offer and choose the Phantom instead of the F-104. Australia meanwhile was looking for a new fighter and was looking at the Mirage III, but McDD quickly offered them a part in the F-4K procurement with locally assembly included. Seeing the advantages of the Phantoms range and payload as well as local production, they accept the offer. The Canadair built airframes are delivered to GAF for final assembly with CAC building airframe components and the Spey under license.
Germany
Early in the tender for the new German fighter aircraft, word gets out about Lockheed bribing Franz Josef Strauss for the contract. Lockheed is immediately banned from the tender and fined for bribery. Italy and the Netherlands also ban Lockheed from their aircraft tenders after hearing about this. McDD offers the F-4C but says it won't be ready until 1963, so in the meantime the US offers the Luftwaffe the F-5A as a stopgap until the Phantom is ready. This allows Luftwaffe pilots to get valuable training in a supersonic aircraft so that the transition to the F-4 is much easier. The F-4C is built under license by a consortium comprising Fokker, Fiat, SABCA, Dornier and Messerschmidt with the J-79 built by MTU and Fiat.In addition to Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, and Belgium the European built Phantoms are delivered to Turkey, Norway, Greece, Spain, and Denmark.
The surplus Canadian modernized F5's might have been contenders as well. IOTL Canada eventually sold some to Botswana.
They might have been but it would run into issues, most of the Irish equipment is European sourced and I'd imagine the PR issues of buying F5's in 2001 might be hard to swing (added to the change in orders with new build equipment for the forces rather than second hand)
It could very well be in the running but I think one of the factors that would also play in is the costings for support and all the munitions as well, The Air Corps have had issues in the past over major parts supply. For the shoestring even the single versus double engines would be an issue.
Maybe some Hawks from the Nordic Battlegroup (ie Finland?)
EDIT: having had a look the main chunk that went to Botswana was pre 2001, but the Greeks were offered some in 2000, so maybe 6 with some bought for spares and training?
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