Alternate Air Force roundels and other symbols

Thande

Donor
Just a thought. The current air force roundels used by modern countries came about largely through an accident of history. The oft-derided 'target' roundel so common in many airforces is derived from the French Revolutionary cockade, which was chosen as a symbol by the Armée de l'air; French allies then copied it so it would be quickly recognised by French planes and AA. For example, Britain reversed the colours to get the modern RAF symbol (previously using the Union Jack, but that was easy to mistake for the German Iron Cross from a distance) and the United States slightly modified the RAF form by turning the white circle into a star.

Then in WW2 the red centre of the American symbol was too easily confused with the Japanese 'meatball' and thus it was removed, giving us the modern white star on blue circle of the USAF.

So as you can see, what symbols come about are largely due to who's on whose side. If Britain had been allied with Germany in alt-WW1, then presumably RAF (or eqv.) planes would still use a Union Jack symbol. If France had been allied with Germany, perhaps the Germans would use a red-white-black cockade (like modern Egypt) instead of the Iron Cross. If the US had never fought Japan, the modern USAF or equivalent would perhaps still use a roundel that looks comparable to the British and Commonwealth Dominions'.

There are also even more esoteric variations, like how the modern Vietnamese Air Force uses a U.S. airforce symbol recoloured in gold and red, just because they started out with a lot of former US equipment and found it easier to recolour the symbol than repaint a new one.

So what variations on air force symbols could we come up with, assuming an alternate 20th century? And what about air force symbols for countries that no longer exist in OTL?
 

Philip

Donor
We could easily see a proliferation of circle with cross in Europe. Perhaps circle with crescent and star in Muslim countries. I think a blue and white circle with a red rooster in it would be a great roundel for France
 

Thande

Donor
We could easily see a proliferation of circle with cross in Europe. Perhaps circle with crescent and star in Muslim countries.
But recall what I said above about symbols that are easy to mistake for each other. If you have two countries with circle and cross on opposite sides, most probably one will change their symbol to something else, as otherwise there will be lots of incidences of friendly fire.
 
This link might be useful.
The non-round ones are particularly interesting. The "circle-and-band" ones (PRC, Panama, Senegal, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Venezuela, Vietnam) are probably based on the US one, as is the Filipino one (diamond with wings)

However, there are also: some stars (SU, Russia, Belarus and Brazil). Was the Brazilian one based on the Soviet one?
Triangles pointing in various directions:
Down: Botswana, Estonia, Mexico. Note that Botswana and Estonia use the same colours, just reversed.
Up: Iraq & Myanmar (plus South Yemen)
Left: Hungary

A shield (Chile)
A pentagon (Indonesia)
A square (Poland)
2 various crosses (Germany & Lithuania)

Finally, the ones for Japan and Montenegro are almost identical.

Edit: I think Byzantium would be the "cross-with-four-B's" symbol in white on a blue circle, with the cross extending to the edges of the circle. Anyone want to photoshop it?
 
Last edited:

Thande

Donor
This link might be useful.
The non-round ones are particularly interesting. The "circle-and-band" ones (PRC, Panama, Senegal, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Venezuela, Vietnam) are probably based on the US one, as is the Filipino one (diamond with wings)

However, there are also: some stars (SU, Russia, Belarus and Brazil). Was the Brazilian one based on the Soviet one?
Triangles pointing in various directions:
Down: Botswana, Estonia, Mexico. Note that Botswana and Estonia use the same colours, just reversed.
Up: Iraq & Myanmar (plus South Yemen)
Left: Hungary

A shield (Chile)
A pentagon (Indonesia)
A square (Poland)
2 various crosses (Germany & Lithuania)

Finally, the ones for Japan and Montenegro are almost identical.

Note how the Guatamalan one is based on the old U.S. one...

Greece and El Salvador are identical, but it's unlikely the two would ever be together in a situation where they could be confused...
 

Axis England/UK (in a TL with no Red Cross!)
vrafroundelqh5.gif

Republic of Vermont
calafoz7.png

British-aligned California Republic
 
Just a thought. The current air force roundels used by modern countries came about largely through an accident of history. The oft-derided 'target' roundel so common in many airforces is derived from the French Revolutionary cockade, which was chosen as a symbol by the Armée de l'air; French allies then copied it so it would be quickly recognised by French planes and AA. For example, Britain reversed the colours to get the modern RAF symbol (previously using the Union Jack, but that was easy to mistake for the German Iron Cross from a distance) and the United States slightly modified the RAF form by turning the white circle into a star.

Originally the US didn't even use a star in it's roundel. Ours was on the French model and went red, blue, white. The star wasn't added until the interwar years. Interestingly enough the same roundel was used by the White Russians, iirc and by the modern day Bosnians.


Also, the A-H "roundel" was based on a cross like Germany's, and so were several of the minor axis: Slovakia, and Romania iirc.

Then in WW2 the red centre of the American symbol was too easily confused with the Japanese 'meatball' and thus it was removed, giving us the modern white star on blue circle of the USAF.

Britain also dropped the red in the center of it's roundel in the Pacific theater for the same reason. The FAA went as far as to put American style bars on it's aircraft.

Then there is also the use of invasion stripes for the Normandy campaign, later duplicated by the Anglo-French forces in the Suez Campaign of 1956.

However, there are also: some stars (SU, Russia, Belarus and Brazil). Was the Brazilian one based on the Soviet one?

Brazil used the star b/c their original aircraft were mostly ex-USAAF, and they went with a roundel and bars like we have.
 
Interesting discussion.

I've always thought that the old WWI American roundel would have been more suited to a Confederate States that managed to survive the American Civil War. The colours of the WWI US roundel were (from the outermost circle): red, blue and white, which is the basic order on the CS battle flag and as most air forces evolved from army air-wings, it isn't hard to imagine that any CS roundel might have evolved from the CS battle flag. Perhaps it would have a red outermost circle, a blue inner circle and a white star in the centre of it all?
 

Thande

Donor
Interesting discussion.

I've always thought that the old WWI American roundel would have been more suited to a Confederate States that managed to survive the American Civil War. The colours of the WWI US roundel were (from the outermost circle): red, blue and white, which is the basic order on the CS battle flag and as most air forces evolved from army air-wings, it isn't hard to imagine that any CS roundel might have evolved from the CS battle flag. Perhaps it would have a red outermost circle, a blue inner circle and a white star in the centre of it all?
If the CSA did use a roundel derived from the French/RAF one that is. I think the most obvious recognition flash would be a blue X, if we're talking about a CS air force in isolation.
 
Greece and El Salvador are identical, but it's unlikely the two would ever be together in a situation where they could be confused...

They (or Japan and Monetengro, etc) could be part of a multinational coalition or UN force. There'd only be a problem if they were part of opposing multinational coalitions.

I'd rather a gold and purple or gold, purple and white for Byzantine roundels.
 
The black and white "invasion stripes" that the western allies used in 1944 over France make me wonder if one side of an alternate WWI might simply adopt the technique of painting parallel stripes in national colors around the wings and tail. It would be both simple and distinctive.

I'm not 100% sure, but I vaguely recall one of the Turtledove's Great War books referring to US airplanes as having some kind of eagle-type design on the wings. I also vaguely recall a reference to the British using a roundel similar to OTL, while the Canadians have a roundel in which the central red circle is replaced by a red maple leaf, which I believe is also pretty much the same as OTL. I don't remember any specific description of the Confederate insignia, whether they use a roundel as well or use some version of their own flag design.

Since TL-191 has the US allied to Imperial Germany and Austria-Hungary, and all three of those powers have some type of eagle as a symbol, perhaps all three adopt some kind of very stylized eagle with outstretched wings as a symbol on their aircraft.
 

Thande

Donor
I'm not 100% sure, but I vaguely recall one of the Turtledove's Great War books referring to US airplanes as having some kind of eagle-type design on the wings. I also vaguely recall a reference to the British using a roundel similar to OTL, while the Canadians have a roundel in which the central red circle is replaced by a red maple leaf, which I believe is also pretty much the same as OTL. I don't remember any specific description of the Confederate insignia, whether they use a roundel as well or use some version of their own flag design.
Turtledove said the CSA aircraft just use C.S. battle flags as their roundel.

I don't think the British and Canadians would use the same roundels as OTL in North America (see my first post for why). They'd probably just use the Union Jack.
 
I don't think the British and Canadians would use the same roundels as OTL in North America (see my first post for why). They'd probably just use the Union Jack.

Well, it was Turtledove's idea, not mine! :p

I still like the idea of stylized eagles for the ATL version of the "Triple Alliance" (USA, Germany, A-H). This eagle symbolism is explicitly mentioned at least once, though not on aircraft. At one point during the Great War (I can't remember which book), it mentions one of the characters (I think it was Cincinnatus Driver, though he hadn't taken his last name yet) in US-occupied Kentucky seeing a US propaganda poster. It showed three eagles - the US bald eagle, the heraldic eagle of Imperial Germany, and the double-headed heraldic eagle of Austria-Hungary - clutching the flags of the CSA, Britain, France, and Russia in their talons, and tearing them apart.
 

Thande

Donor
Well, it was Turtledove's idea, not mine! :p
I recognise the difference ;)

Paul Spring said:
I still like the idea of stylized eagles for the ATL version of the "Triple Alliance" (USA, Germany, A-H). This eagle symbolism is explicitly mentioned at least once, though not on aircraft. At one point during the Great War (I can't remember which book), it mentions one of the characters (I think it was Cincinnatus Driver, though he hadn't taken his last name yet) in US-occupied Kentucky seeing a US propaganda poster. It showed three eagles - the US bald eagle, the heraldic eagle of Imperial Germany, and the double-headed heraldic eagle of Austria-Hungary - clutching the flags of the CSA, Britain, France, and Russia in their talons, and tearing them apart.

Not unlike the OTL symbolism (earlier on) of the 'League of the Three Black Eagles' [Austria, Germany and Russia]).
 
LIFE!

I revive thee with an alternate Russian roundel during WWI, where the monarchy is stronger and they never adopted the white-blue-red flag:

RussiaRoundel.png
 
Top