Alternate administrative division of post-WWII Germany

I've some ideas myself, but I'm more curious what the board thinks. Assume several variables: united vs divided Germany, eastern border at the Oder-Neisse Line vs revision in Germany's favor vs loss of all or part of Lusatia to Czechoslovakia, loss of territory to Denmark and/or the Benelux countries vs no loss, the Saar retained vs lost under the pre-1935 borders vs lost under larger borders.
 
OK, since nobody's biting, I'll go first. The Germans here can tell me what they think.

Bavaria could have been kept under the original borders, Palatinate and all. Alternately, Franconia and Swabia could have been detached as well, the former becoming its own state, the latter either becoming a state as well or being joined with some of the territory to its west.

The Baden-Wurttemberg area could have been divided into 2 states (one for each occupation zone) or seen the original states restored (with Hohenzollern added to Wurttemberg).

The Rhine Province and Bavarian Palatinate could have become their own states. Alternately, the Rhine Province could have been divided into 2 states according to the occupation zones. Montabaur could have joined either Hesse or the south Rhenish state. Rhenish Hesse could have joined either Hesse or the Palatinate.

Westphalia could have become its own state, but its borders need not follow those of the Prussian province. It could have included the Hanoverian government district of Osnabruck and the Oldenburg Munsterland. Alternately, the Westphalian districts of Tecklenburg, Halle, Bielefeld, Herford, Minden, and Lubbecke could have joined Lower Saxony.

If the northern Rhine Province and Westphalia are not joined into a state as in OTL, the issue arises of what to do with the Ruhr, formerly divided between the former Prussian provinces. It could be made into its own state, either just the Ruhr proper (Duisburg, Essen, Bochum, Dortmund, and nearby localities) or a "Greater Ruhr" that would include Dusseldorf, Wuppertal and a strip to the Dutch border on both sides of the Rhine.

Oldenburg, Brunswick, Lippe, and Schaumburg-Lippe could have retained their statehood in spite of their size. The former 2 doing so would impede the creation of Lower Saxony, so Hanover would have to be restored. Lippe could have joined Lower Saxony instead of (North Rhine-)Westphalia. The government district of Osnabruck and Oldenburg could have formed the state of Weser-Ems, possibly joined by Bremen and the district of Tecklenburg.

In the case of a united Germany, all or part of Lusatia could have gained statehood. Berlin could have either become a state or been returned to Brandenburg. In the event of a favorable revision of the eastern border, the states of Hither Pomerania and Lower Silesia could be created, though the latter would not include most of the region is would be named after.

Lubeck could have been restored as a free city and Frankfurt could have become one as well if it was chosen as the West German capital. Alternately, Hamburg and Bremen could have been absorbed into the neighboring states. Cuxhaven could have been returned to Hamburg and Bremerhaven could have stayed in Hanover/Lower Saxony.
 

Anderman

Donor
Mh Franconia could became independent from Bavaria at least there is a movement now a days who wants that.
 
I believe at first the Oder was to be the border, all the way down, so about half of Silesia, including Breslau would have been in Soviet zone, making for a stronger communist zone. Another way to enlarge Germany would have been if western allies insisted on not retreating, with American troops as far east as Leipzig and Thuringia, then perhaps the Soviets would have wanted a similar zone and could only achieve this by going further east with their zone.
For an even worse result for Germany, there was one plan for the Netherlands to annex the whole region around Cologne, which they wisely refused to do. And of course there were those Polish extremists who felt that the Elbe should be Polands western border, though I don't believe anyone in position of authority ever really thought that that should go forward.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
since you're bringing this up, you guys might have some

good map resources -

Does anybody here have any maps showing internal administrative divisions of Prussia in the 19th century, before and after 1871?

Anybody have a map showing internal administrative divisions of Bavaria in the same era, and the weimar era.

Responding to the original post, I'll just contribute from stuff I was reading recently by Gerhard Weinberg.

He notes that essentially the occupation dividing line in Germany was what Churchill and Stalin agreed on and presented to Roosevelt as a fait accompli. IE, having the Soviet zone extending to include the entirety of Brandenburg, rounded out to the northwest with Mecklenburg and to the southwest with Thuringia. it was also Churchill's preference for Britain to have the northwest, while leaving the Americans with the central and southeast zones of Bavaria and Hesse.

FDR's preference was actually to give the US an occupation zone in northwest Germany, leaving the south to the British and French. Additionally, and significantly for postwar second-guessing of his attitude towards the Soviets, Roosevelt wanted the western (especially American) and Soviet zones to meet *at* Berlin, not to have Berlin embedded deep inside the Soviet zone. Had the dividing line cut through Berlin there still would have been an iron curtain most likely, but there would have been less instability and risk of cricis over Berlin.
 
Interesting, if the US and Soviets zones met at Berlin, that too suggests a bigger Germany, in that the Soviets would hardly be satisfied with a sliver of Germany from the Berlin to Oder area, unless the area fanned out to the north and south of Berlin.
 

Nebogipfel

Monthly Donor
OK, since nobody's biting, I'll go first. The Germans here can tell me what they think.

Bavaria could have been kept under the original borders, Palatinate and all. Alternately, Franconia and Swabia could have been detached as well, the former becoming its own state, the latter either becoming a state as well or being joined with some of the territory to its west.

The Baden-Wurttemberg area could have been divided into 2 states (one for each occupation zone) or seen the original states restored (with Hohenzollern added to Wurttemberg).

Baden-Württemberg was formed in 1952 of Baden, Württemberg, and Hohenzollern. At least the former two have _very_ strong regional identities, like the Bavarians do. So no problem here to have two single states (the original Hohenzollern was tiny). You might want to add the Swabian parts from Bavaria to Württemberg (same tribe). Franconia also had some (moderate) tendencies in the past for independence. But I doubt that the Bavarians would like this at all...
 
Baden-Württemberg was formed in 1952 of Baden, Württemberg, and Hohenzollern. At least the former two have _very_ strong regional identities, like the Bavarians do. So no problem here to have two single states (the original Hohenzollern was tiny). You might want to add the Swabian parts from Bavaria to Württemberg (same tribe). Franconia also had some (moderate) tendencies in the past for independence. But I doubt that the Bavarians would like this at all...

The original states were actually a weird amalgam that didn't quite match the old boundaries. The region was split between French and U.S. control, and so you had three states: Baden (Southern Baden), Würtemmberg-Baden (northern Baden and northern Wurtemmberg), and Würtemmberg-Hohenzollern (southern Wurtemmberg and Hohenzollern).
 
Also, one relatively minor change in the German post-war boundaries - originally, Stettin was supposed to go to Germany, while all of East Prussia was to go to Poland. However, Stalin decided he wanted Königsberg as a warm-water port, so he decided to retain northern East Prussia (now Kaliningrad), and in exchange, the border was moved slightly west from the Oder near the Baltic Sea such that Stettin went to Poland.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
well, from at least the territorial point-of-view,

wasn't it just darn nice and considerate of Stalin that he felt obligated to provide territorial compensation to a country (Poland) and a political movement (Polish communist party) that were completely in his power, to who could have done nothing against him even if he given them nothing and said, "you'll get no territories ceded to you, and like it"

Of course the territorial solution was cruel to the Germans, and Stalin was cruel to the Poles in every-other-which-way, but at least in terms of territory he was kind of like the psychopathic boyfriend who nevertheless gives you nice, fancy gifts from time-to-time.


---Regarding an intra-German border at Berlin. One way for the Soviets to keep a satisfactorily sized zone even with the western allies having territorial contiguity to Berlin would be, as you said, having the Soviet zone fan out to the northwest and southwest of the city. Maybe a southward extension could see an expansion of the Soviet zone into northern Bavaria. Northwestern extension might reach Schleswig-Holstein.

Alternatively, they could transfer less territory to Poland, which would not require any concessions from or exchanges with the west. I think that the most likely territory to leave with Germany would have been in this order from most likely to least likely: a) east-central Brandenburg and western Silesia,
b) Pomerania, c) central Silesia, d) upper Silesia, e) east Prussia.
 
Baden-Württemberg was formed in 1952 of Baden, Württemberg, and Hohenzollern.

I know, I did some pretty extensive Wikipedia reading on the subject, not just in English but in German, Russian and French as well (thank God for Google Translate). I just listed the possibilities that interested me.

At least the former two have _very_ strong regional identities, like the Bavarians do.

I'd imagine so, since Baden is Catholic and Wurttemberg is Lutheran.

You might want to add the Swabian parts from Bavaria to Württemberg (same tribe).

I've been thinking of adding it to the state formed out of the US occupation zone in B-W, going by the scenario that all zone boundaries also become state boundaries. Swabia's kind of a conundrum for me, I'm not sure if there was any desire to separate from Bavaria, and if there was then I'm not sure if there was interest in statehood.

But I doubt that the Bavarians would like this at all...

They didn't like the loss of the Rhenish Palatinate either. The decision ultimately rests with the occupation authorities.

wasn't it just darn nice and considerate of Stalin that he felt obligated to provide territorial compensation to a country (Poland) and a political movement (Polish communist party) that were completely in his power, to who could have done nothing against him even if he given them nothing and said, "you'll get no territories ceded to you, and like it"

Yeah, that was some pretty slick bullshit he pulled.

Of course the territorial solution was cruel to the Germans, and Stalin was cruel to the Poles in every-other-which-way, but at least in terms of territory he was kind of like the psychopathic boyfriend who nevertheless gives you nice, fancy gifts from time-to-time.

I regard the Oder-Neisse Line as one of the most unfair borders ever imposed on a nation, even one which had committed Nazi Germany's crimes. It's rendered acceptable only by the fact that Poland lost even more territory to the USSR than it gained from Germany.
 
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