Altered Europe 1945

The Sudetenland, Elsass-Lotharingia and the corridor would not be given up by Germany as it appears to be shown by your map. There is just no way that would happen. In the eyes of Germany it was German land full of Germans. There is just no way what so ever that the land would be so freely given up by Germany.

Also what program do you use for your map making, because it is rather messy and the boarders seem very undefined. Like you appear to have Poznan as part of Germany.

Hopefully you find this constructive feedback.:)
 
The War in the East continued The Germans had managed to with all of the reinforcements deliver some nasty surprises to the Red Army. Without the Lend Lease supplies arriving the Red Army were taking more loses in equipment that was harder to replace. With German-allied strength in the East at the largest level since the invasion of 1941 it appeared that a stalemate had been reached but one in which the Germans had from time to time scored some victories.
With the return of all of the lands which the Germans had conquered , return of allied Prisoners and the death of Hitler, there was pressure to move from a truce to a peace agreement in Great Britain. Reports had come out of Berlin viva the Swedish and Swiss Press at the Trial of Matin Borman, Henrich Himmler and of Goring. The First two Were Hung in November 1943. Herman Goring killed himself when it was almost Certain that he faced conviction. More than 100 German officials, members of the SS, Judges were tried and convicted of Crimes against the German People. Military courtmartials were held against Members of the Waffen SS who had shot British Prisoners of War in 1940. British witnesses were called and the British Army had wofficals at the trial. Six officers and enlisted ment were shot and several others were sent to a military prison for life.
On May 1,1944 the Government of Great Britain and the Commonwealth signed a permanent cease fire agreement with Germany and 7 days latter with Italy. On May 31st,1944 with pressure from Congress to end the war and shift the forces to the Pacific to finish off the Japanese the US followed suit and signed an agreement with Germany. It required the completion of the deNazification of the Reich and the continuin to prosecute War Criminals. The US also put pressure to encourage the German Reich to end the War in the East.
But with a permanent Peace signed between Great Britain and Germany it was somewhat hallow.
Still after the Fallure of the Soviet February 1944 offensive talks between represenatives of Germany, its allies and the USSR met in Stockholm.
 
Russia was demanding back all of the territory of the Soviet Union. Germany was unwilling to do that as the Soviets included land from Poland and land taken from Romania. Germany and its allies were willing to return the land near the Baltic States provided that there was a 10mile DMZ on the Soviet Side. It was willing to compromise on Belorussia but was facing pressure from the Poles to stand firm. But what the Russians wanted the most was the Ukraine.
Germany had greatly shifted its Policy regarding the Free Russian movement and the establishment of a Free Ukraine. The more Stalin was unwilling to compromise the more support the two got. In April 1944 the government of Germany signed an agreement with the Free Ukraine Movement recognizing the establishment of a Free Republic. Based upon a former ss division, which had been recruited in the Ukrainian section of Poland the unit had been greatly expanded to a 3 division force.
The White Russian force commanded by General Vlasov was also expanded from 2 divisions to 6.
 
The maps that I used to have were lost in a computer breakdown so I have to use maps that are cruder than I would like to. I hope that I had adjusted the map this time. I will try to make a new map once I can find a better one.

Blank Europe 3 with rivers.PNG
 
Yes with the Death of Hitler and the replacement of the Nazi regime with the Military government the new government change all of its Policy regarding the Slavic and other People of the Soviet Union. Currently the German Government is arming the Russian Liberation Army and A Ukrainian National Liberation Army.
 
Really now? Then are we supposed to accept any old TL that walks in here, no matter how unrealistic? If you try and posit certain conclusions from a PoD on this forum you should expect it to be scrutinized, questioned, and picked at. You should be prepared to defend the conclusions you have reached. If you just want to go hog wild with no regards for actual historical methodology, then we have the ASB forum for that.

Maybe if your point of view actually had some evidence behind it, I would give it more consideration. But so far you have failed to provide even the slightest shred of that. You have also comprehensively decided to ignore the overwhelming amount of evidence provided that is contrary to your conclusions.

Please leave. It's really embarrassing how brazen and obnoxious you are. This discussion forum is called www.alternatehistory.com not "'Plausible' Counter-Factuals approved by ObsessedNuker". Again, if you don't like a particular TL because it conflicts with one of your viewpoints, make a small case for the author to take into consideration and be quiet, not try to bully him to your perspective.

EDIT: It seems I got here pretty late :D
 

CalBear

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Please leave. It's really embarrassing how brazen and obnoxious you are. This discussion forum is called www.alternatehistory.com not "'Plausible' Counter-Factuals approved by ObsessedNuker". Again, if you don't like a particular TL because it conflicts with one of your viewpoints, make a small case for the author to take into consideration and be quiet, not try to bully him to your perspective.

EDIT: It seems I got here pretty late :D

Okay, note to EVERYONE:

This is a discussion Board. Folks who post here have to expect feedback, negative as well as positive, especially when POD seem to lead to massive changes that are at variance with the well known and established OTL realities.

This does not mean that someone has the right to argue every other word. It does mean that authors can expect to have unpopular, or less than likely, T/L debated at some length. As long as the debate is not toward the poster and only toward the idea, it is perfectly acceptable.

tl;dr: Y'all need to chill.
 
Besides the other criticisms that have been leveled, this is a massively anachronistic view of WWII. The need to reintegrate Germany into the community of nations has led to a narrative where the war was fought to liberate Germany from the Nazis, but at the time, it was seen as a war with Germany and the Nazi leadership was only incidental. Remember that the Holocaust hasn't been uncovered yet and the Nazis aren't yet history's greatest boogeyman. Hitler is just another dictator at the head of another band of thugs, what makes him uniquely dangerous is the size and industrial might of the country he governs, not the poisonous nature of his ideology.

There is no way the Western Allies are going to suddenly turn a 180 in all their goals just because some anti-Semitic militaristic nationalists who want a separate peace with the West are now running Germany in place of the previous bunch of anti-Semitic militaristic nationalists in more stylish uniforms who have already sought a separate peace with the West.
 
Germany would not get off lightly. The allies would demand that there be an accounting for all those who were involved in Crimes against Humanity. Thus Nazi and other officials would be expected to be fully prosecuted be it by Special German Courts, with international observers.
Compensation was also expected for all those who suffered. The return of the borders and the re-establishment of nations was just the first step in a long one.
The American and British government urged both the Soviet and the German government to reach an accord with the Soviet Union.
One of the requirements of a peace was the withdrawal of German forces from the East at the end of the hostilities with Russia and the demobilization of the German Military.
Germany was to transition to a Democratically elected government.If Germany was to rejoin the world community it would need to prove to not only the United States and Great Britain but to all nations that those who participated
in the Crimes would face justice whether they were Nazi's or in the Military. This was a demand as part of the price for any peace.
 
Somehow I seem not to have gotten across what I had intended. The purpose of the fight by the United States in Europe and the Pacific was the defeat of those forces which had wage a war of aggression against the people of the world. American Servicemen fought to liberate the people of Europe from the rule oof a man and a group of people that surely were some of the most evil people to have ever existed. While the liberation of Germany from the Nazis was not the purpose of the was the death of Hitler and the overthrow of the Nazi regime were. Perhaps I made some poor choices in how I worded things. My goal was not to offend anyone. If I did I apologize.
 
Somehow I seem not to have gotten across what I had intended. The purpose of the fight by the United States in Europe and the Pacific was the defeat of those forces which had wage a war of aggression against the people of the world. American Servicemen fought to liberate the people of Europe from the rule oof a man and a group of people that surely were some of the most evil people to have ever existed. While the liberation of Germany from the Nazis was not the purpose of the was the death of Hitler and the overthrow of the Nazi regime were. Perhaps I made some poor choices in how I worded things. My goal was not to offend anyone. If I did I apologize.

You didn't cause any offense and nothing you've posted in this thread is out of line.

What I'm critiquing is the basic premise of this TL. The Western Allies were indeed fighting to "defeat of those forces which had wage a war of aggression against the people of the world", as you say. The idea that the Allies considered the Nazis and not Germany itself the enemy is, as I say, anachronistic. That narrative of the war only emerged as Germany rejoined the community of nations decades after the war. If the Allies really thought as you posit here, the Morgenthau plan would never have been floated and the rearmament of West Germany in the Cold War wouldn't have been controversial.

The Allies are not going to suddenly reverse course and stab Russia in the back just because Germany is ruled by a band of thugs in feldgrau instead of a band of thugs in black. Germany is the enemy and Germany must be totally defeated.

Remember that the enormity of the Holocaust has not been discovered yet and Stalin has not been denounced. Even if for some reason the British, US, and Free French governments have a massive collective brain hiccup and decide to do this, the populations of the Western Allied nations are not as hostile to Stalin's Russia as they were just a few years after the war, and they consider Germany, not Hitler or the upper Nazi leadership to be the threat. There is absolutely no way that Germany is going to be allowed any form of conditional surrender. There is absolutely no way the Western Allies are going to take action which is tantamount to a declaration of war against Stalin.

And that's only the tip of the iceberg. How is newly independent Poland suddenly okay with German troops crossing it to fight Russia? How does Germany accept the return of Alsace to France or France leaving Alsace in German hands? Besides the fundamentally impossible nature of the basic premise, you open a can of worms here that can't even begin to be addressed.

If you want a scenario where Germany fights Russia but not the West, have Germany somehow force Britain to make a separate peace after the fall of France, stay out of Africa, and not declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor. It would be a massive stretch to imagine and take a lot of handwaving, but it's not flat-out impossible like what you're trying to do here.
 
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