Alt Stalingrad

[Corbell Mark IV]

What if, fustrated by the inablity to take the city, Hilter order the use of chemical weapons?

Don't know which would have more impact, early on?

Or would it be a bigger POD if they happen to get the chemical weapons just in time to use against the counter-attack?

Would it work?

How would if effect Kurst?

Would the UK or US start using chemical weapons to retaliate for their use on the Eastern Front?

 

[The Red]

Of course they would,this would be MAD in Europe.Reminded that Germany could not match Britain in Chemical Weapons.

There would be no Kursk as thered be no Germany.

 

[I Blame Communism]

I am not an expert of the matter of chemical weapons and their potential for escalation during the war, however the effects on Stalingrad itself are most unlikely to be drastic. After all, what was left of the city and its defenders had endured insane punishment already, and after a certain point the Soviets were simply not going to let go.

And I don't see the chemical weapons being much of a spanner in the working of Uranus. The Germans problem was that there flanks were strung out, poorly manned by poor troops, and neglected, and they were faced by the very thing (fast-moving combined-arms power-at-a-point) the Germans had perfected against France. Why should chemicals be available there, rather than in the city? Why will they stop the relentless Soviet armoured thrust?

Kursk was not inevitable. It was a result of a small German counterattack at the end of the winter offensive creating a major salient. That could have happened elsewhere, or not happened.

 

[I Blame Communism]

Of course they would,this would be MAD in Europe.Reminded that Germany could not match Britain in Chemical Weapons.

There would be no Kursk as thered be no Germany.

Okay, devastating for all concerned as the consequences might be, that sounds like an exagerration. German civilisation survived WW1, after all.

 

[The Red]

Okay, devastating for all concerned as the consequences might be, that sounds like an exagerration. German civilisation survived WW1, after all.

Technology had changed a lot,with bombers becoming an incredibly effective weapon.The RAF and USAAF could gas any city they wished with ease.The Luftwaffe couldnt do anywhere near that amount of damageA good analogy would be the differing capabilities of the Superpowers at the Cuban missle crisis.

 

[I Blame Communism]

Technology had changed a lot,with bombers becoming an incredibly effective weapon.The RAF and USAAF could gas any city they wished with ease.The Luftwaffe couldnt do anywhere near that amount of damageA good analogy would be the differing capabilities of the Superpowers at the Cuban missle crisis.

I understand that, but if WW2 showed anything, is Stalingrad showed anything, it's that people can take an unimaginable amount of pnishment and keep going. The war may end faster, there may be fewer Germans, not no Germany?

 

[Corbell Mark IV]

I am not an expert of the matter of chemical weapons and their potential for escalation during the war, however the effects on Stalingrad itself are most unlikely to be drastic. After all, what was left of the city and its defenders had endured insane punishment already, and after a certain point the Soviets were simply not going to let go.

And I don't see the chemical weapons being much of a spanner in the working of Uranus. The Germans problem was that there flanks were strung out, poorly manned by poor troops, and neglected, and they were faced by the very thing (fast-moving combined-arms power-at-a-point) the Germans had perfected against France. Why should chemicals be available there, rather than in the city? Why will they stop the relentless Soviet armoured thrust?

Kursk was not inevitable. It was a result of a small German counterattack at the end of the winter offensive creating a major salient. That could have happened elsewhere, or not happened.

ONe senerio I envisioned would be Nazis moving up chemical weapons to use on the city as the counterattack took place. Thus instead of using them offensively they are forced to use them defensively.

Because tanks crews are vunerable to gas attacks?

However, I'm not sure of the methode of delivery at the time, are we talking bombs, shells, or both?

Shells should be easy enough to direct at tactical targets, bombs? somewhat less so.

 

[The Red]

I understand that, but if WW2 showed anything, is Stalingrad showed anything, it's that people can take an unimaginable amount of pnishment and keep going. The war may end faster, there may be fewer Germans, not no Germany?

I was trying to be dramatic , yes Germany will survive. Like somewhat intact.Seeing as the allies have been given a green light to use their Chemical superiority they will against every city and industrial target which is worth anything.
Germany may very well experience societal collapse with food and material circualtion grinding to a halt as well as civillian death tolls in millions.The Eastern front will collapse with Uranus and further operations crushing severly weakened German army which can merely retreat.

Britain might suffer a few gas attacks but will easily survive intact after whats left of the German government waves the white flag ater at most a few months.

 

[I Blame Communism]

ONe senerio I envisioned would be Nazis moving up chemical weapons to use on the city as the counterattack took place. Thus instead of using them offensively they are forced to use them defensively.

Because tanks crews are vunerable to gas attacks?

However, I'm not sure of the methode of delivery at the time, are we talking bombs, shells, or both?

Shells should be easy enough to direct at tactical targets, bombs? somewhat less so.

I'd hesitate to describe Uranus as a "counter-attack". It happened extremely fast: the encirclement itself was completed in four days. Frankly the Soviets will crack Axis resistance before the chemicals can be usefully distributed.

This may have interesting consequences for the relief effort and the winter offensive, though, besides Germany being bombed with chemicals.

 

[The Red]

I'd hesitate to describe Uranus as a "counter-attack". It happened extremely fast: the encirclement itself was completed in four days. Frankly the Soviets will crack Axis resistance before the chemicals can be usefully distributed.

This may have interesting consequences for the relief effort and the winter offensive, though, besides Germany being bombed with chemicals.

The German army wont be in any place to mount an offensive ever again.Maybe if a military junta takes charge made up of professional generals then the German army can hold the Soviets for a few months but seeing as theres little food,ammo or fuel coming that would be a best case senario for the Germans.

 

[Corbell Mark IV]

I was trying to be dramatic , yes Germany will survive. Like somewhat intact.Seeing as the allies have been given a green light to use their Chemical superiority they will against every city and industrial target which is worth anything.
Germany may very well experience societal collapse with food and material circualtion grinding to a halt as well as civillian death tolls in millions.The Eastern front will collapse with Uranus and further operations crushing severly weakened German army which can merely retreat.

Britain might suffer a few gas attacks but will easily survive intact after whats left of the German government waves the white flag ater at most a few months.

Wow! That's quite a POD, then.

So, cutting 2 years off the war?

Anyone have any reasons this wouldn't happen?

Whats the effect on the Cold War setup then?

 

[I Blame Communism]

The German army wont be in any place to mount an offensive ever again.Maybe if a military junta takes charge made up of professional generals then the German army can hold the Soviets for a few months but seeing as theres little food,ammo or fuel coming that would be a best case senario for the Germans.

I know. The Winter Offensive was a Soviet one.

 

[The Red]

Wow! That's quite a POD, then.

So, cutting 2 years off the war?

Anyone have any reasons this wouldn't happen?

Whats the effect on the Cold War setup then?

Maybe if Roosevely could hold Churchill back but I cant see that happening as Roosevely was an obsessive anti-nazi and any backdoor means of ending the war is going to be welcomed with open arms.

The Cold War will be very like one that might take place in a Morgenthau world.With the Russians curbstomping their way through Eastern Europe through 1943 and the allies attampting to land in France and Italy.

It depends on how badly Germany is hit but lets say its the total retaliation plan that Churchil had.Germany is going to remaina bakward agrain land of Europe with probably treaties made keeping it neutral.Slightly better cold war.Possibly a slightly better world from a Utilitarian perspective.

 

[Corbell Mark IV]

Thanks for the input.

If anyone else posts, I take a look at it later/tommorrow?

 

[The Red]

Thanks for the input.

If anyone else posts, I take a look at it later/tommorrow?

No thankyou for the idea.

Are we looking at a TL here?

 

[Corbell Mark IV]

No thankyou for the idea.

Are we looking at a TL here?

It was just an idle speculation that bubbled up in my mind.

THe type of thing I think of while driving in traffic.

TL? Tried writing some recently, realized I need some study on how to write, currently reading "The Art of Fiction".

Looking forward to the exercises in the back.

Maybe if I can put a AH spin on them, maybe I can come up with something for this site.

 

[The Red]

It was just an idle speculation that bubbled up in my mind.

THe type of thing I think of while driving in traffic.

TL? Tried writing some recently, realized I need some study on how to write, currently reading "The Art of Fiction".

Looking forward to the exercises in the back.

Maybe if I can put a AH spin on them, maybe I can come up with something for this site.

Could I maybe do a TL then?Kinda like a WW2 spin on the Cuban Missle War Timeline.

 

[aktarian]

What if, fustrated by the inablity to take the city, Hilter order the use of chemical weapons?

Don't know which would have more impact, early on?

Or would it be a bigger POD if they happen to get the chemical weapons just in time to use against the counter-attack?

Would it work?

How would if effect Kurst?

Would the UK or US start using chemical weapons to retaliate for their use on the Eastern Front?

well, using them in cities may not get the desired effect, due to terrain. Then there is a question of protection. Using protective gear will hinder Germans more than Soviets as they would be advancing and would need mobility more then other side.

Using them against Uranus is problematic for several reasons. For one Germans didn't really know what was happening and had problems knowing where Soviets were exactly. In order for CW to be effective they would ahve to be stockpiled close to Stalingrad and generals prepared for their eventual use. Then there is question of hitting enough Soviets with enough gas, problematic when you lack the whole picture and events are unfolding fast. And it's not as if Soviets will call off the offensive just becasue some troops are gassed.

And that doesn't take into account the effects cold weather will have on CW effectiveness.

 

[Corbell Mark IV]

Could I maybe do a TL then?Kinda like a WW2 spin on the Cuban Missle War Timeline.

Certainly! I'd enjoy reading it.

 

[Corbell Mark IV]

well, using them in cities may not get the desired effect, due to terrain. Then there is a question of protection. Using protective gear will hinder Germans more than Soviets as they would be advancing and would need mobility more then other side.

The horrible close quarters and the element of surprise (thus no protective gear) I thought might win the battle.

Using them against Uranus is problematic for several reasons. For one Germans didn't really know what was happening and had problems knowing where Soviets were exactly. In order for CW to be effective they would ahve to be stockpiled close to Stalingrad and generals prepared for their eventual use. Then there is question of hitting enough Soviets with enough gas, problematic when you lack the whole picture and events are unfolding fast. And it's not as if Soviets will call off the offensive just becasue some troops are gassed.

But the battle went on for months, thus time to make the decision and then move up CW, a time consuming process that could be interupted by Uranus. And yes I did realize that hitting attacking soviets forces would be more difficult than gassing defensive forces in a small section of a city.

And that doesn't take into account the effects cold weather will have on CW effectiveness.

Ah! I did forget about that!

Hmm, was the weather that bad for the whole time?

*quick look* Battle starts in summer, ends in winter, so yeah with waiting for Hitler to get frustrated enough to change CW policy, yes.