Alt Kriegsmarine

Why should they want to make Britain furious? That was the LAST the Germans wanted to do.
German diplomacy was not exactly adept - witness the appointment of Herr Brickendropp as Ambassador to London. I could easily see them telling themselves if they don't build the fleet too big (and realistically, they can't really build even up to their OTL tonnage with this strategy) the British will accept it.

There won't be an AGNA. The whole point of it was to wed the KM to a mixed fleet with a battleship centrepiece, but keep it too small to threaten the similar (but larger) RN.

If the yards are focused on 11" commerce raiders and long-range submarines, then London will conclude (rightly) that this is a strategy aimed squarely at strangling Britain, and look at all the things you can do about it.
Not the OTL one, certainly. Whether there would be some sort of agreement I'm more ambivalent - there was certainly a mood at the time that the Germans were being treated too harshly. If they keep the ships small (8" rather than 11") I think some sort of agreement isn't ASB.

Expect something like financial support for French intervention in the Rhineland, backing for Spanish Republicanism, Anglo-French acceptance of the Italian intervention in Abyssinia leading to a successful Stresa Front keeping Italy opposed to any Rhineland and later Anschluss - pick some or all of those.

Which will probably thwart German ambitions well before a Sudeten crisis - and if there is one, the Czechs will probably end up fighting.
Maybe, it depends how ambitious the Germans get with their fleet. Remember, this isn't a bigger fleet (probably smaller, actually), it's a change of emphasis. And realistically there is only one country that either a balanced fleet or a freak fleet could end up fighting - the UK. Provided the UK felt secure in their superiority, they were surprisingly relaxed about it.

Exactly - so this change in fleet format would easily change what the British planned for the 1936 LNT - less emphasis on new Battleships and the need to keep the older ones in service allowing for more Cruisers to be built
Yes. The other question is what armament they'd go for on the battleship part of the treaty - 15" to allow them to follow the Vanguard route and re-use old turrets/guns suddenly becomes a lot more attractive. I think the raider threat would make fast battleships a lot more attractive than even OTL, although I'd agree that the money available for them would be rather less.
The other issue is aircraft carriers - they're arguably a better response to cruisers than other cruisers, and that would probably mean the RN gives them more emphasis.

If the German navy went the Cruiser / Submarine route then is that not easier for Britain to 'over match'

For a start the Towns (probably from the 3rd batch) become true heavy Cruisers with the planned triple 8" Turrets and the subsequant design (Crown Colony class) are more of these Batch 3 heavy Towns.
That also comes into the LNT - it may well be that the WNT cruiser rules are kept.

With no Twins and no B and T - the need to keep the Revenge class in service disappears and or more of the Queens and Battle Cruisers can be taken out of service in the late 30s for Deep Refits.

With the 5 Revenges taken out of service Britain can start building the KGVs sooner (as a 1 for 1 replacement for the 5 Revenges) before 1937.
In OTL the R-class were supposed to be scrapped when the Lions came into service, so with a reduced German battleship threat I'd say it makes perfect sense for the R-class to be scrapped earlier. The other issue is manpower - with a much bigger cruiser and possibly aircraft carrier fleet to deal with, the fleet will have to find the men from somewhere. If they don't need the battleships so badly, the R-class are a strong candidate.
I could see a 15" KGV entering service as early as 1936 in those circumstances, given how rapidly the British could build battleships.

Obviously the Increased numbers of submarines is going to create all sorts of warning flags as this can only mean one thing as far as Britain is concerned.

Political pressure aside I can see such a Submarine building programme being mirrored by a massive escort programme and increased numbers of Destroyers being built for the British.

USW (Unrestricted Submarine Warfare) is a major issue no matter if Germany has 40 Submarines or 200 Submarines - but this aside such a fleet IMO is better for the UK in one way as it allows them to focus on building a larger escort / Destroyer fleet and concentrate on ASW and Escort/Convoy techniques earlier.
It would certainly change the emphasis of the fleet - ASW was to a large extent neglected between the wars, if it's most of the threat they're facing then it has to get more attention and funding.
 
What about a better Merchant Raider . Merchant ships built with conversion in mind .

Auxiliary Seaplane Carrier raider . Something that could carry more than one seaplane a suitable aircraft which could carry a torpedo or a Disguised torpedo boat carrier to carry multiple torpedo boat with 4 torpedoes.

Something that could take out small convoys.

They wouldn't survive long but they'd be a cheap way of causing the allies to divert resources to convoy protection.
 
Improved Kriegsmarine - Auxiliary Cruisers

What about a better Merchant Raider . Merchant ships built with conversion in mind .

Auxiliary Seaplane Carrier raider . Something that could carry more than one seaplane a suitable aircraft which could carry a torpedo or a Disguised torpedo boat carrier to carry multiple torpedo boat with 4 torpedoes.

Something that could take out small convoys.

They wouldn't survive long but they'd be a cheap way of causing the allies to divert resources to convoy protection.

Roskill in the War at Sea says that Plan Z included 26 auxiliary cruisers and he criticised the Germans for not having any ready in September 1939. But as we in our various alternative histories are trying to get the best possible fleet for 1939 instead of 1944, we should plan in 1934-36 to have some ready for 1939.
 
Improved Kriegsmarine - The British Response

German diplomacy was not exactly adept - witness the appointment of Herr Brickendropp as Ambassador to London. I could easily see them telling themselves if they don't build the fleet too big (and realistically, they can't really build even up to their OTL tonnage with this strategy) the British will accept it.


Not the OTL one, certainly. Whether there would be some sort of agreement I'm more ambivalent - there was certainly a mood at the time that the Germans were being treated too harshly. If they keep the ships small (8" rather than 11") I think some sort of agreement isn't ASB.


Maybe, it depends how ambitious the Germans get with their fleet. Remember, this isn't a bigger fleet (probably smaller, actually), it's a change of emphasis. And realistically there is only one country that either a balanced fleet or a freak fleet could end up fighting - the UK. Provided the UK felt secure in their superiority, they were surprisingly relaxed about it.


Yes. The other question is what armament they'd go for on the battleship part of the treaty - 15" to allow them to follow the Vanguard route and re-use old turrets/guns suddenly becomes a lot more attractive. I think the raider threat would make fast battleships a lot more attractive than even OTL, although I'd agree that the money available for them would be rather less.
The other issue is aircraft carriers - they're arguably a better response to cruisers than other cruisers, and that would probably mean the RN gives them more emphasis.


That also comes into the LNT - it may well be that the WNT cruiser rules are kept.


In OTL the R-class were supposed to be scrapped when the Lions came into service, so with a reduced German battleship threat I'd say it makes perfect sense for the R-class to be scrapped earlier. The other issue is manpower - with a much bigger cruiser and possibly aircraft carrier fleet to deal with, the fleet will have to find the men from somewhere. If they don't need the battleships so badly, the R-class are a strong candidate.
I could see a 15" KGV entering service as early as 1936 in those circumstances, given how rapidly the British could build battleships.


It would certainly change the emphasis of the fleet - ASW was to a large extent neglected between the wars, if it's most of the threat they're facing then it has to get more attention and funding.

I think that none of the proposals (including mine) would result in even a minor change to British naval policy between 1934 and 1939.

Between 1919 and 1934 the Royal Navy was planning to fight a war against Japan because that country was the only serious potential enemy. After 1934 the Service still had to plan for a war against Japan (and Italy) as well as Germany.

For example the RN preferred the smallest (and therefore least expensive) ships that were fit for purpose so that they could be build in the large numbers that it required. Hence the Leander and Arethusa class cruisers and the A-I type destroyers. They stopped building them in favour of the Southampton class cruisers and Tribal class destroyers to counter the large cruisers and destroyers that the Japanese were building. However, as usually happens with ships like this never actually went into battle with the ships they were designed to counter.

I haven't checked my copy of Grand Strategy, but from what I remember the British war plan until as late as 1936 was to send nearly all of the Royal Navy to Singapore in the event of a war with Japan. From memory all that would be left in European waters would be 3 (out of 15 battleships), 4 (out of 46 cruisers) and no destroyers.

Even that force was thought inadequate to cope with the Imperial Japanese Navy and the strengthened One Power Standard Fleet approved in the 1934 Deficiency Programme was to provide a fleet powerful enough to "Show a tooth," to the Japanese. There would be no increase in the force left behind in Europe.

The 70 cruiser requirement for the One Power Standard Fleet was made up of 25 ships for fleet work and 45 ships for trade protection. The fleet requirement was based on a ratio of 5 cruisers for every 3 battleships the Royal Navy had. The trade protection requirement was based on the length of the shipping lanes and the amount of traffic on them. Therefore a Kriegsmarine with more surface ships capable of commerce raiding does not necessarily change what the British do.

Similarly the number of ASW craft was based on the number of convoys it had to run, not necessarily the number of submarines that any potential enemy was expected to possess. It is true that the RN didn't have a large ASW force at the start of the war, but it did have mobilisation plans for one in the event of war.

The British didn't start full-scale rearmament until 1936, which included the Cabinet approving a Two-Power Standard Fleet capable of fighting Germany and Japan at the same time.

A larger naval build up by the Germans before 1939 might mean the RN would want to build more warships in retaliation. However, the extra ships could not be built for financial and industrial reasons.

The Government thought Britain would be ruined financially by a general war with even one great power. Therefore British policy in 1934-39 was to build up armed forces strong enough to be used as a bargaining chip in a diplomatic solution with what became the Axis powers. Rearmament was limited by the amount of money the Treasury could raise and it said that only £1,500 million could be made available for 1937-42 by increasing taxes and borrowing. However, that would not pay for everything the Admirals, Air Marshalls and Generals wanted. Therefore there was no way the Admirals were going to get Treasury approval for extra ships to counter any extra ships that Germany might build.

The British arms industry had been run down along with the armed forces so arms production could not be increased any more than it was without putting the British economy on a war footing and British public opinion would not accept that until after Munich. Some of the money spent during the rearmament period was spend on building factories and their plant, rather than military equipment. Large orders also had to be placed abroad. The infamous example was armour plate. In 1930-35 the British had been building 3 cruisers and a handful of lightly armoured tanks per year. Suddenly it found itself having to provide armour for 2 aircraft carriers, 2 battleships and 7 cruisers plus hundreds of armoured fighting vehicles per year. Money had to be spent on increasing the capacity of the plant and armour was ordered from Czechoslovakia to fill the gap created by the huge increase of demand over supply.

Therefore rearmament overheated the economy, creating demand pull inflation and a balance of payments deficit. The British Government had to slow down its rearmament programme in 1938-39, rather than speed it up.

The Royal Navy had planned to order 28 submarines, 8 aircraft carriers, 9 battleships, 28 cruisers and 64 destroyers, plus smaller warships and auxiliaries in the 1936-39 financial years.

However, the overheating of the economy forced the Admiralty to cut 7 submarines, 2 aircraft carriers, 5 cruisers and 16 destroyers from the 1938 and 1939 programmes.

This reduced the number of ships actually ordered to 21 submarines, 6 aircraft carriers, 9 battleships, 23 cruisers and 48 destroyers. 5 of the battleships and all the other ships were actually built, but some took longer to build than intended. Therefore it is probable that the ships cut from the programme would not have been completed until the second half of the war.

However, it did begin its ASW mobilisation before war was declared by ordering the first 20 Hunt class escort destroyers, 56 Flower class corvettes and 20 Bangor class minesweepers in the normal 1939-40 programme.

Therefore if the Kriegsmarine can build up a larger surface fleet for September 1939 the Royal Navy will not be able to build more warships in response.

That won't win the war for Germany in itself. However, the Royal Navy might have to strengthen the Home Fleet by weakening other fronts like the Mediterranean and that would make life easier for the Italians.
 
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Tyr Anazasi

Banned
I think that none of the proposals (including mine) would result in even a minor change to British naval policy between 1934 and 1939.

Between 1919 and 1934 the Royal Navy was planning to fight a war against Japan because that country was the only serious potential enemy. After 1934 the Service still had to plan for a war against Japan (and Italy) as well as Germany.

For example the RN preferred the smallest (and therefore least expensive) ships that were fit for purpose so that they could be build in the large numbers that it required. Hence the Leander and Arethusa class cruisers and the A-I type destroyers. They stopped building them in favour of the Southampton class cruisers and Tribal class destroyers to counter the large cruisers and destroyers that the Japanese were building. However, as usually happens with ships like this never actually went into battle with the ships they were designed to counter.

I haven't checked my copy of Grand Strategy, but from what I remember the British war plan until as late as 1936 was to send nearly all of the Royal Navy to Singapore in the event of a war with Japan. From memory all that would be left in European waters would be 3 (out of 15 battleships), 4 (out of 46 cruisers) and no destroyers.

Even that force was thought inadequate to cope with the Imperial Japanese Navy and the strengthened One Power Standard Fleet approved in the 1934 Deficiency Programme was to provide a fleet powerful enough to "Show a tooth," to the Japanese. There would be no increase in the force left behind in Europe.

The 70 cruiser requirement for the One Power Standard Fleet was made up of 25 ships for fleet work and 45 ships for trade protection. The fleet requirement was based on a ratio of 5 cruisers for every 3 battleships the Royal Navy had. The trade protection requirement was based on the length of the shipping lanes and the amount of traffic on them. Therefore a Kriegsmarine with more surface ships capable of commerce raiding does not necessarily change what the British do.

Similarly the number of ASW craft was based on the number of convoys it had to run, not necessarily the number of submarines that any potential enemy was expected to possess. It is true that the RN didn't have a large ASW force at the start of the war, but it did have mobilisation plans for one in the event of war.

The British didn't start full-scale rearmament until 1936, which included the Cabinet approving a Two-Power Standard Fleet capable of fighting Germany and Japan at the same time.

A larger naval build up by the Germans before 1939 might mean the RN would want to build more warships in retaliation. However, the extra ships could not be built for financial and industrial reasons.

The Government thought Britain would be ruined financially by a general war with even one great power. Therefore British policy in 1934-39 was to build up armed forces strong enough to be used as a bargaining chip in a diplomatic solution with what became the Axis powers. Rearmament was limited by the amount of money the Treasury could raise and it said that only £1,500 million could be made available for 1937-42 by increasing taxes and borrowing. However, that would not pay for everything the Admirals, Air Marshalls and Generals wanted. Therefore there was no way the Admirals were going to get Treasury approval for extra ships to counter any extra ships that Germany might build.

The British arms industry had been run down along with the armed forces so arms production could not be increased any more than it was without putting the British economy on a war footing and British public opinion would not accept that until after Munich. Some of the money spent during the rearmament period was spend on building factories and their plant, rather than military equipment. Large orders also had to be placed abroad. The infamous example was armour plate. In 1930-35 the British had been building 3 cruisers and a handful of lightly armoured tanks per year. Suddenly it found itself having to provide armour for 2 aircraft carriers, 2 battleships and 7 cruisers plus hundreds of armoured fighting vehicles per year. Money had to be spent on increasing the capacity of the plant and armour was ordered from Czechoslovakia to fill the gap created by the huge increase of demand over supply.

Therefore rearmament overheated the economy, creating demand pull inflation and a balance of payments deficit. The British Government had to slow down its rearmament programme in 1938-39, rather than speed it up.

The Royal Navy had planned to order 28 submarines, 8 aircraft carriers, 9 battleships, 28 cruisers and 64 destroyers, plus smaller warships and auxiliaries in the 1936-39 financial years.

However, the overheating of the economy forced the Admiralty to cut 7 submarines, 2 aircraft carriers, 5 cruisers and 16 destroyers from the 1938 and 1939 programmes.

This reduced the number of ships actually ordered to 21 submarines, 6 aircraft carriers, 9 battleships, 23 cruisers and 48 destroyers. 5 of the battleships and all the other ships were actually built, but some took longer to build than intended. Therefore it is probable that the ships cut from the programme would not have been completed until the second half of the war.

However, it did begin its ASW mobilisation before war was declared by ordering the first 20 Hunt class escort destroyers, 56 Flower class corvettes and 20 Bangor class minesweepers in the normal 1939-40 programme.

Therefore if the Kriegsmarine can build up a larger surface fleet for September 1939 the Royal Navy will not be able to build more warships in response.

That won't win the war for Germany in itself. However, the Royal Navy might have to strengthen the Home Fleet by weakening other fronts like the Mediterranean and that would make life easier for the Italians.

Very interesting!!!
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I'm not so sure that that argument would hold in an alt TL - if there's one thing likely to get more money out of the Brit taxpayers (i.e. closer to war footing) it's Germany being apparently more threatening. (i.e. more navy.)
Perhaps Astrodragon can help, if he's still around...
 
I think that none of the proposals (including mine) would result in even a minor change to British naval policy between 1934 and 1939.

Between 1919 and 1934 the Royal Navy was planning to fight a war against Japan because that country was the only serious potential enemy. After 1934 the Service still had to plan for a war against Japan (and Italy) as well as Germany.

For example the RN preferred the smallest (and therefore least expensive) ships that were fit for purpose so that they could be build in the large numbers that it required. Hence the Leander and Arethusa class cruisers and the A-I type destroyers. They stopped building them in favour of the Southampton class cruisers and Tribal class destroyers to counter the large cruisers and destroyers that the Japanese were building. However, as usually happens with ships like this never actually went into battle with the ships they were designed to counter.

I haven't checked my copy of Grand Strategy, but from what I remember the British war plan until as late as 1936 was to send nearly all of the Royal Navy to Singapore in the event of a war with Japan. From memory all that would be left in European waters would be 3 (out of 15 battleships), 4 (out of 46 cruisers) and no destroyers.

Even that force was thought inadequate to cope with the Imperial Japanese Navy and the strengthened One Power Standard Fleet approved in the 1934 Deficiency Programme was to provide a fleet powerful enough to "Show a tooth," to the Japanese. There would be no increase in the force left behind in Europe.

The 70 cruiser requirement for the One Power Standard Fleet was made up of 25 ships for fleet work and 45 ships for trade protection. The fleet requirement was based on a ratio of 5 cruisers for every 3 battleships the Royal Navy had. The trade protection requirement was based on the length of the shipping lanes and the amount of traffic on them. Therefore a Kriegsmarine with more surface ships capable of commerce raiding does not necessarily change what the British do.

Similarly the number of ASW craft was based on the number of convoys it had to run, not necessarily the number of submarines that any potential enemy was expected to possess. It is true that the RN didn't have a large ASW force at the start of the war, but it did have mobilisation plans for one in the event of war.

The British didn't start full-scale rearmament until 1936, which included the Cabinet approving a Two-Power Standard Fleet capable of fighting Germany and Japan at the same time.

A larger naval build up by the Germans before 1939 might mean the RN would want to build more warships in retaliation. However, the extra ships could not be built for financial and industrial reasons.

The Government thought Britain would be ruined financially by a general war with even one great power. Therefore British policy in 1934-39 was to build up armed forces strong enough to be used as a bargaining chip in a diplomatic solution with what became the Axis powers. Rearmament was limited by the amount of money the Treasury could raise and it said that only £1,500 million could be made available for 1937-42 by increasing taxes and borrowing. However, that would not pay for everything the Admirals, Air Marshalls and Generals wanted. Therefore there was no way the Admirals were going to get Treasury approval for extra ships to counter any extra ships that Germany might build.

The British arms industry had been run down along with the armed forces so arms production could not be increased any more than it was without putting the British economy on a war footing and British public opinion would not accept that until after Munich. Some of the money spent during the rearmament period was spend on building factories and their plant, rather than military equipment. Large orders also had to be placed abroad. The infamous example was armour plate. In 1930-35 the British had been building 3 cruisers and a handful of lightly armoured tanks per year. Suddenly it found itself having to provide armour for 2 aircraft carriers, 2 battleships and 7 cruisers plus hundreds of armoured fighting vehicles per year. Money had to be spent on increasing the capacity of the plant and armour was ordered from Czechoslovakia to fill the gap created by the huge increase of demand over supply.

Therefore rearmament overheated the economy, creating demand pull inflation and a balance of payments deficit. The British Government had to slow down its rearmament programme in 1938-39, rather than speed it up.

The Royal Navy had planned to order 28 submarines, 8 aircraft carriers, 9 battleships, 28 cruisers and 64 destroyers, plus smaller warships and auxiliaries in the 1936-39 financial years.

However, the overheating of the economy forced the Admiralty to cut 7 submarines, 2 aircraft carriers, 5 cruisers and 16 destroyers from the 1938 and 1939 programmes.

This reduced the number of ships actually ordered to 21 submarines, 6 aircraft carriers, 9 battleships, 23 cruisers and 48 destroyers. 5 of the battleships and all the other ships were actually built, but some took longer to build than intended. Therefore it is probable that the ships cut from the programme would not have been completed until the second half of the war.

However, it did begin its ASW mobilisation before war was declared by ordering the first 20 Hunt class escort destroyers, 56 Flower class corvettes and 20 Bangor class minesweepers in the normal 1939-40 programme.

Therefore if the Kriegsmarine can build up a larger surface fleet for September 1939 the Royal Navy will not be able to build more warships in response.

That won't win the war for Germany in itself. However, the Royal Navy might have to strengthen the Home Fleet by weakening other fronts like the Mediterranean and that would make life easier for the Italians.

All this is absolutely correct in OTL - but if the British see Germany building a 'asymetrical' fleet that that has no other purpose but to threaten's the UKs maritime trade links (and Cruisers lets face it have 2 roles - Interdiction of Maritime trade and stopping other Cruisers from interdicting your own Maritime trade and as for submarines.....) then they are going to plan accordingly.

The Leander and Arethusa class cruisers were designed to allow the maximum numbers of Cruisers within the 1st LNT limits.

The Towns as you say in response to the larger Japanese Treaty Breaking Cruisers then being built.

The Ark Royal was built to provide a class of ship suitable for opposing the Japanese and this class makjes good sense if Japan was the UKs principle opponent

Armoured Deck Fleet Carriers were subsequantly built rather than more Ark Royal class Fleet carriers due to the realisation that British Fleets would have to operate and survive in littorial evironments within range of Land based bombers (particularly 3 Engined Italian ones) rather than operating in the far east.

If in 1935 - 36 it becomes apparent that Germany is building a fleet for the sole purpose of interdiction of Imperial Trade then we would see a suitable change in the type of ships being built by the British.

If I was in charge of building a KM suitable for blockading the UK then it would be a mix of Pocket battleships (Probably no more than built IOTL), Long range 5.9" Light Cruisers, Merchant Raiders (either perpose built or modified) with a Amphibian AC and obviously lots of Submarines

Would I build Battle Cruisers or battleships - possibly the Twins but not the Bismarck and T and then only to tie down home fleet assets.

Its easy to say here - that building Capital ships prevents the RN from sending more capital ships to oppose the Italians but if I the 'Controller' of the KM in 1934 -36 then I would have no inkling that Italy would be Germany's ally in 1940+ and certainly could not seamlessly plan for it - and building such ships might be viewed as a waste of time and resources given the British fleet running 15 such ships!
 

Tyr Anazasi

Banned
In OTL German politics it was common sense to avoid war with Britain. Despite this indeed Raeder favoured a cruiser fleet in 1934. The reason behind was Versailles. Thus the British accepted the naval agreement soon later as they did not want this kind of fleet.

If I was CIC of the RM/KM I would also try to avoid the British becoming hostile. And the only way was to accept such an agreement.
 
Improved Kriegsmarine - British Public Opinion

I'm not so sure that that argument would hold in an alt TL - if there's one thing likely to get more money out of the Brit taxpayers (i.e. closer to war footing) it's Germany being apparently more threatening. (i.e. more navy.)
Perhaps Astrodragon can help, if he's still around...

I disagree. It would not be provocative enough. Hitler would have to do something like annex Austria and the Sudetenland in 1934 instead of 1938 and even that might not be enough. He would actually have to start a war earlier.

In the 25 years before the outbreak of the First World War Beresford and Fisher successfully launched publicity campaigns that forced the Government into the Naval Defence Act of 1889 and Spencer Programme of 1893. However, public sentiment towards the armed forces then was exactly the opposite to what it was between the world wars.

I'm not an expert on British political and social history between the wars, but I do know that British public opinion throughout the interwar period was profoundly pacifist (at least with a small P) and the interwar British Governments of all political persuasions had to act accordingly or they would not have been in power for long.

This was the era of the East Fulham By Election of 1933 and the Peace Ballot of 1934. In Westminster many Members of Parliament were calling for further defence cuts. Meanwhile the Geneva Disarmament Conference was going on and the British delegation was told that if anything they had disarmed too much.

There was a documentary on the TV about David Lloyd George, which included some film footage of an anti-war speech he made in the early 1930s. In it he said that Britain was spending £300 million a year paying the interest on the money it borrowed to pay for World War I and berated the Government for spending £100 million a year preparing for the next one.

In any case it German air power had replaced German seapower as the greatest threat to British security in the hearts and minds of the British public and British Government. The film Things to Come by Alexander Korda and based on the book by H.G. Wells begins with Everytown's devastation by an air raid.


The first Deficiency Report of 1934 recommended a build up the force the Royal Navy planned to send to Singapore and the RAF in the Far East. What the Cabinet actually approved was the expansion of the Metropolitan RAF in particular its strategic bombing force. And that was only the beginning. The Air Estimates for 1934-35 were £17.5 million - the Air Estimates for 1939-40 were £220 million.

Billy Bragg was wrong, the Government did not put prosperity down at the armoury. They put it everywhere but the armoury until almost the last minute and when they did it was with great reluctance. Roskill called his history of the Royal Navy between 1930 and 1939 "The Period of Reluctant Rearmament."

This is why my conclusion is that the Germans would have to do something even more provocative than build up their navy at a faster rate to make the British Government spend more on naval armaments.
 
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Roskill in the War at Sea says that Plan Z included 26 auxiliary cruisers and he criticised the Germans for not having any ready in September 1939. But as we in our various alternative histories are trying to get the best possible fleet for 1939 instead of 1944, we should plan in 1934-36 to have some ready for 1939.

I agree, if you want bang for your buck then build a bunch of auxiliary cruisers to include the capability to act as pseudo-seaplane carriers. Those will give the British a lot of grief. Granted they will get rolled up eventually but so did most of their bigger ships and the large warships were expensive and resource intensive.
 
Improved Kriegsmarine - Naval Aviation

Strictly speaking this is off topic. However, if we can improve the Kriegsmarine with hindsight, why not avoid the self-inflicted quantitative and qualitative faults in the maritime branches of the Luftwaffe too.

What Happened in the Real World

After Munich the Luftwaffe approved a massive expansion plan to be completed by the end of 1942. Under the scheme its equivalent of RAF Coastal Command was to be expanded to 41 squadrons of 12 aircraft by the end of 1942. There were to be 18 coastal reconnaissance squadrons with flying boats and seaplanes, 9 long range reconnaissance squadrons with flying boats, 2 seaplane squadrons to operate from the Kriegsmarine's battleships and cruisers and 12 squadrons to operate from aircraft carriers. The were also to be 58 geschwardern of bombers and 13 of them would be equipped with twin engine bombers for to anti-shipping duties.

At the end of August 1939 the Luftwaffe's Coastal Command actually had 20 squadrons. 5 of the 6 coastal gruppen stabs had been formed along with 15 of the 18 squadrons. However, no long range squadrons or their gruppe stabs existed. Both shipborne seaplane squadrons had been formed. 3 aircraft carrier squadrons had been formed. One of them had only been formed in July, but the others had been in existence since November 1938. Furthermore the force was doubled to 6 squadrons (3 fighter and 3 dive bomber) in September 1939 along with 2 gruppe stabs to control them. They were converted into standard fighter and dive bomber units in July 1940, the month after work on the Graff Zeppelin was suspended. There were also 2 air sea rescue squadrons, which are not counted in the 20 squadrons.

The anti-shipping force (which would eventually become Fligerkorps X) had 2 under strength geschwardern. One had only one or 2 gruppen (sources differ) using the He 111H medium bomber. The second geschwader only had 18 aircraft instead of 94, but they were the first Ju 88 aircraft in Luftwaffe service.

German it was a land power and the Luftwaffe had to create a large army co-operation force before it could build up a large naval co-operation force. But the quality of the naval co-operation force was bad and that was the fault of bad procurement decisions made by the High Command not the productive capacity of the German economy. The coastal squadrons were equipped with flying boats and seaplanes which even British aircraft like the Anson and Hudson could shoot down. With hindsight more Do 17s and He 111s should have been built in their place.

Although all the aircraft belonged to the Luftwaffe, torpedo development was the job of the Kriegsmarine and they failed to develop an effective air launched torpedo. The Luftwaffe didn't go into action with effective torpedoes (which were bought from the Italians) until 1942, . The maritime Luftwaffe was an enthusiastic supporter of mine warfare which, but it started the war with an inadequate stock of magnetic mines and their provision was also the responsibility of the Kriegsmarine.

The German Air Force could have built more aircraft before the war if the German aircraft industry had been better organised and if the German Air Ministry had not frequently changed its production plans. Much of this was the fault of Ernst Udet, head of the Ministry's Technical Office from 1936 to 1941. He was a brilliant pilot, but was a poor administrator. Erhard Milch, Goering's deputy in the Luftwaffe and the Air Ministry couldn't fly but was a superb administrator. He could have had overall control of aircraft development and production during this vital period, but Goering restricted his powers for political reasons.


What I, with hindsight, would have done differently

In this version of history Goering did not restrict Milch's powers and Germany built more aircraft in 1938 and 1939. Some of the extra production was used to create a larger naval co-operation force, which would be equipped with land-based aircraft instead of flying boats and large seaplanes. This helped the aircraft industry increase its production by reducing the number of types in production and therefore making mass production easier. In the real world Udet suspended the development of the DB603 aero engine. Gunston in his book Encyclopaedia of Aero Engines says the engine would have been in production by 1940 if Udet hadn't stopped it. In this version of history Milch didn't suspend the engine, but it wasn't being produced in significant numbers until 1941. Udet also ruined Bomber A by insisting that the version with two DB610 engines (the He 177) be built rather than the He 277 with four DB603 engines. In this version of history Milch allows the switch to be made early enough for the He 277 to be built instead of the Fw 200C.

In this version of history there were 18 coastal flying squadrons in 6 groups at the outbreak of war and they were equipped with Do 17Z and He 111H bombers rather than the equivalent Dornier and Heinkel flying boats and seaplanes of the real world.

There were also 9 long range reconnaissance squadrons in 3 grupen equipped with the He111H pending the arrival of the He 277.

The number of catapult aircraft, aircraft carrier and air sea rescue squadrons was the same as the real word and there was no improvement in the quality of the aircraft.

The 2 anti-shipping geschwadern were at full strength and well trained.

In this version of history the weapons were also better. That is an adequate air launched torpedo was in service and the stock of magnetic mines was adequate.

Another problem with the German naval co-operation forces was poor relations between the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine. In this version of history they were not exactly good, but they were adequate.
 
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Strictly speaking this is off topic. However, if we can improve the Kriegsmarine with hindsight, why not avoid the self-inflicted quantitative and qualitative faults in the maritime branches of the Luftwaffe too.

What Happened in the Real World

After Munich the Luftwaffe approved a massive expansion plan to be completed by the end of 1942. Under the scheme its equivalent of RAF Coastal Command was to be expanded to 41 squadrons of 12 aircraft by the end of 1942. There were to be 18 coastal reconnaissance squadrons with flying boats and seaplanes, 9 long range reconnaissance squadrons with flying boats, 2 seaplane squadrons to operate from the Kriegsmarine's battleships and cruisers and 12 squadrons to operate from aircraft carriers. The were also to be 58 geschwardern of bombers and 13 of them would be equipped with twin engine bombers for to anti-shipping duties.

At the end of August 1939 the Luftwaffe's Coastal Command actually had 20 squadrons. 5 of the 6 coastal gruppen stabs had been formed along with 15 of the 18 squadrons. However, no long range squadrons or their gruppe stabs existed. Both shipborne seaplane squadrons had been formed. 3 aircraft carrier squadrons had been formed. One of them had only been formed in July, but the others had been in existence since November 1938. Furthermore the force was doubled to 6 squadrons (3 fighter and 3 dive bomber) in September 1939 along with 2 gruppe stabs to control them. They were converted into standard fighter and dive bomber units in July 1940, the month after work on the Graff Zeppelin was suspended. There were also 2 air sea rescue squadrons, which are not counted in the 20 squadrons.

The anti-shipping force (which would eventually become Fligerkorps X) had 2 under strength geschwardern. One had only one or 2 gruppen (sources differ) using the He 111H medium bomber. The second geschwader only had 18 aircraft instead of 94, but they were the first Ju 88 aircraft in Luftwaffe service.

German it was a land power and the Luftwaffe had to create a large army co-operation force before it could build up a large naval co-operation force. But the quality of the naval co-operation force was bad and that was the fault of bad procurement decisions made by the High Command not the productive capacity of the German economy. The coastal squadrons were equipped with flying boats and seaplanes which even British aircraft like the Anson and Hudson could shoot down. With hindsight more Do 17s and He 111s should have been built in their place.

Although all the aircraft belonged to the Luftwaffe, torpedo development was the job of the Kriegsmarine and they failed to develop an effective air launched torpedo. The Luftwaffe didn't go into action with effective torpedoes (which were bought from the Italians) until 1942, . The maritime Luftwaffe was an enthusiastic supporter of mine warfare which, but it started the war with an inadequate stock of magnetic mines and their provision was also the responsibility of the Kriegsmarine.

The German Air Force could have built more aircraft before the war if the German aircraft industry had been better organised and if the German Air Ministry had not frequently changed its production plans. Much of this was the fault of Ernst Udet, head of the Ministry's Technical Office from 1936 to 1941. He was a brilliant pilot, but was a poor administrator. Erhard Milch, Goering's deputy in the Luftwaffe and the Air Ministry couldn't fly but was a superb administrator. He could have had overall control of aircraft development and production during this vital period, but Goering restricted his powers for political reasons.


What I, with hindsight, would have done differently

In this version of history Goering did not restrict Milch's powers and Germany built more aircraft in 1938 and 1939. Some of the extra production was used to create a larger naval co-operation force, which would be equipped with land-based aircraft instead of flying boats and large seaplanes. This helped the aircraft industry increase its production by reducing the number of types in production and therefore making mass production easier. In the real world Udet suspended the development of the DB603 aero engine. Gunston in his book Encyclopaedia of Aero Engines says the engine would have been in production by 1940 if Udet hadn't stopped it. In this version of history Milch didn't suspend the engine, but it wasn't being produced in significant numbers until 1941. Udet also ruined Bomber A by insisting that the version with two DB610 engines (the He 177) be built rather than the He 277 with four DB603 engines. In this version of history Milch allows the switch to be made early enough for the He 277 to be built instead of the Fw 200C.

In this version of history there were 18 coastal flying squadrons in 6 groups at the outbreak of war and they were equipped with Do 17Z and He 111H bombers rather than the equivalent Dornier and Heinkel flying boats and seaplanes of the real world.

There were also 9 long range reconnaissance squadrons in 3 grupen equipped with the He111H pending the arrival of the He 277.

The number of catapult aircraft, aircraft carrier and air sea rescue squadrons was the same as the real word and there was no improvement in the quality of the aircraft.

The 2 anti-shipping geschwadern were at full strength and well trained.

In this version of history the weapons were also better. That is an adequate air launched torpedo was in service and the stock of magnetic mines was adequate.

Another problem with the German naval co-operation forces was poor relations between the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine. In this version of history they were not exactly good, but they were adequate.
Wouldn't the 4-engined bombers be sorely needed as strategic bombers for the actual land targets in the UK and later USSR?
 
Improved Kriegsamarine - Naval Aviation

Wouldn't the 4-engined bombers be sorely needed as strategic bombers for the actual land targets in the UK and later USSR?

Yes! Preferably to bomb British ports and shipyards in support of the German forces fighting the Battle of the Atlantic.

At full strength the 9 squadrons would have a total unit equipment (including the gruppe stabs) of 120 He 277s. I think they would be useful during the Blitz and later against the USSR. However, I think 120 heavy bombers would not be enough to critically damage the British and Soviet war economies. Historians would be writing, "Unfortunately it only showed what the Luftwaffe could have done if they had been able to produce at least 5 times more of them, provide the air and ground crew plus the oil to keep them flying."

The Germans were sorely in need of something better than the Fw200 for reconnaissance in the North Atlantic too.

Meanwhile in the real world one understrength gruppe of Fw200Cs showed what might have been achieved in 1940-41 if the Germans had provided themselves with an adequate aircraft in adequate numbers. Therefore I think the 9 squadrons should be concentrated on the Battle of the Atlantic.

The 1938 Plan included 58 bomber geschwardern by the end of 1942. That is: the 13 anti-shipping formations already mentioned; 15 medium bomber geschwardern of twin engine bombers for a war against France; and 30 for the strategic bombing of Great Britain. As many as possible of the latter were to be equipped with the He 177. This was beyond the resources of Germany before the conquest of western Europe, so it was up to me I would have given first priority to the 15 French geschwardern, second the anti-shipping formations and thirdly as many He 277s as could be built for strategic bombing, but only after the long-range maritime reconnaissance squadrons had been satisfied.
 
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Improved Kriegsmarine Summary with Revisions

INTRODUCTION

This is a summary with revisions of my previous posts showing the state of the Kriegsmarine and Maritime Luftwaffe in September 1939 in the real world and its condition in this version of history at that date in my version of history. The difference between them is that in 1934 I planned for war in 1939 instead of 1944.

BATTLESHIPS AND AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
Real World

3 Scheer class panzerschiffen and 2 Scharnhorst class battlecruisers in commission.

Bismarck and Tirpitz building. Completed August 1940 and February 1941.

6 H class battleships and 3 O class battlecruisers on order. All cancelled.

2 Graff Zeppelin class under construction. Neither completed.

This Version of History

3 Scheer class panzerschiffen and 2 Scharnhorst class battle cruisers in commission.

Bismarck and Tirpitz building. Completed October 1939 and February 1940.

Graff Zeppelin and Aircraft Carrier B not ordered to reduce congestion in the shipyards and because there was no experience of aircraft carrier design, carrier aircraft design and the operation of both. Instead a merchant ship was converted into a prototype aircraft carrier to gain design and operating experience for bespoke ships to be built 1940-45. However, this plan was put on hold after the Munich Crisis and abandoned altogether in October 1939.

The H class battleship and O class battlecruiser were designed. However, (in common with the plans for new aircraft carriers) the projects were suspended after the Munich Crisis so that resources could be concentrated on completing the ships that were already under construction. They were abandoned altogether in October 1939.

CRUISERS
The Real World

7 cruisers in commission (Emden, 3 K class, Leipzig, Nurnberg and Hipper).

4 Hipper class cruisers under construction and 6 Kreuzer M class light cruisers on order. Of these only 2 Hipper class would be completed.

This Version of History

12 cruisers in commission. Emden, 3 K class, Leipzig and 7 Improved Leipzig. All 3 K class and Leipzig were still built with weak hulls, but in this design fault had been cured in all 4 ships by 1939. In the real world only the Karlsruhe was repaired.

6 Improved Leipzig ordered in 1936 were under construction at the. Another 6 were ordered in 1938, but they were suspended after the Munich crisis to concentrate resources on the 1936 ships and they were cancelled altogether in October 1939. The 1936 ships were laid down 1937-38 for completion 1940-41. In spite of the outbreak of war they were all completed on schedule, which was in part because the 1938 ships were sacrificed.

Z-BOATS
The Real World

22 Z-boats were in service at the outbreak of war:


  • 16 Type 1934 ordered 1934-35, four each from Blohm und Voss, Deschimag Deutsche Werke, Deschimag and Germainiawerft. Completed 1937-39;
  • 6 Type 1936 ordered 1936, all from Deschimag and completed 1938-39.
20 Z-boats were building or on order at the outbreak of war:


  • 8 Type 1936A ordered 1938, all from Deschimag and completed 1940-41;
  • 12 Type 1938 ordered June and July 1939, six from Deschimag and six from Germaniawerft. However, in September all reordered as Type 1936A. 9 of the 12 were actually completed 1942-44 (7 as Type 1936A(Mob) and 2 as Type 1936B). The other 3 were cancelled in July 1941 and re-ordered as Spähkreuzern 1-3, which were in turn cancelled.
This Version of History

All Z-boats were built by one yard so that the hulls could be built using mass production methods. The yard chosen was Deschimag (which built the most Z-boats in the real world). 2 cruisers (Seydlitz and Lutzow) and 6 Type 1935 T-boats, which were built at Deschimag in the real world were ordered from other yards in this version of history so that Deschimag could concentrate on the Z-boats. The hulls, machinery and armament were ordered in bulk to encourage the manufacturers to gear up for large scale production. Therefore:


  • Z1 to Z16 were built to one bulk order in 1934 instead of four orders of 4 over 1934-35;
  • Z17 to Z30 were built to one bulk order in 1936 instead of 6 in 1936 and 8 in 1938; and
  • Z31 to Z42 were built to one bulk order in 1938 instead of two orders in 1939.
All the Z-boats were built to the Type 1944 design. This is in part because continuity of design facilitates rapid construction, but also because it should have been a better warship than the ships built in the real world.

Only 22 Z-boats had actually been completed by September 1939, but the other 20 did not take as long to build and all of them were completed instead of 17 out of 20 in the real world.

T-BOATS
The Real World

In service were:


  • 12 Type 1923/1924 torpedo boats built in the 1920s;
  • 10 F-boats ordered 1934 and completed 1935-38. Blohm und Voss built 2, Germainiawerft 6 and Wilhelmshaven Dockyard 2. A total of 18 was planned, but the F-boat was such a bad warship that it was decided to build more M-boats in their place.
21 boats were on order:


  • 12 Type 1935 ordered 1935-36, half from Deschimang and half from Schichau. They were completed 1939-40;
  • 9 Type 1937 ordered 1937 (six) and 1938 (three), all from Schichau and completed 1941-42.
According to Whitley in German Destroyers of World War II the Germans had planned to build 60 boats in 4 shipyards. T-1 was scheduled for completion in November 1937 (actually December 1939) and T-52 was scheduled for completion in April 1942. If the completion rate was one a month T-60 would be completed in December 1942. However, the outbreak of war forced the deletion of T-31 to T-60 from the programme in October 1939. The first 9 Type 1939 T-boats were ordered until November 1939. Another 21 T-boats of the were ordered from German yards, 1941-44, which did bring the total to 60, but only 36 were completed.

This Version of History

12 Type 1923/1924 boats as the real world. Instead of 18 F-boats and 60 1935 T-boats the Germans planned to build 78 Type 1939 T-boats because they latter design could do the job of the earlier ships better. The only design changes were that its 4.1 inch guns were in DP mountings and the ships were fitted with an AA fire control system to improve their effectiveness as AA escorts.

In common with the larger destroyers all T-boats were built by one yard so that the hulls could be built with mass production methods. The yard chosen was Schichau (which built the most T-boats in the real world). The hulls, machinery and armament were ordered in bulk to encourage the manufacturers to gear up for large scale production. Therefore:


  • T-1 to T-30 were ordered in 1934 instead of the 10 F boats and the 12 Type 1935 T-boats, which were ordered in 6 batches 1934-36;
  • T-31 to T-60 were ordered in 1937 instead of 9 Type 1937, which were ordered in two batches 1937-38;
  • T-61 to T-78 were ordered in 1939 instead of 9 Type 1939, which were ordered in one batch in 1939.
Only 18 ships from the 1934 order had were completed by August 1939. However, only the 10 F-boats had been completed by this time in the real world and these ships more useful so it was a great improvement. The Germans were only able to complete 25 T-boats between September 1939 by the end of 1942 in the real world, but in this version of history they were able to complete all 60 at an average rate of 1½ a month over 40 months.

The Germans still ordered 24 Type 1940 T-boats from Dutch yards but were able to complete at least 6 of them because they Germans didn't order any M-boats from Dutch yards.

S-BOATS

In the real world 37 were ordered to the outbreak of war against a target of 75, but only 18 were in service because 6 were sold and 13 were still under construction.

I had said before that it was a straight doubling of hulls, that is 74 against a target for 150, but only 36 were in service because 12 were sold and 26 were under construction and that orders for diesel engines were quadrupled to facilitate mass production after war was declared and to improve serviceability rates. However, I have since changed my mind and said that the orders for hulls were quadrupled because 150 were wanted for 1939 instead of 75 for 1944. Therefore 148 would have been ordered, but only 72 were in service because 52 were still under construction and the 24 oldest boats had been sold.

M-BOATS

332 Type 1943 M-boats were built 1935-45. That is: 251 instead of the 214 minesweepers of all classes that were actually built (69 Type 1935, 127 Type 1940 and 18 Type 1943); 42 instead of the 21 KUJ boats actually built; and 39 instead of the 24 TF-boats that were built. This produces 83 extra ships, nearly a third more than the real world. This was possible because of standardisation on one design ordered in bulk that was designed to be mass produced.

MISCELLANEOUS

Ammunition, especially torpedoes had been properly tested and was therefore reliable. An adequate stock of magnetic mines had been built up because they were planning for war in 1939 instead of 1944.

The Kriegsmarine started its radar programme 3 years ahead of the Royal Navy. However, the British had caught up by 1939 and by 1942 British naval radars were superior to Germany's. In this version of history the Germans maintained their lead so that at the outbreak of war their ships are equipped with radars equivalent to the ones that the British had in 1942.

In the real world the Germans did not have any auxiliary cruisers ready for September 1939 and its was another 6 months before they were ready to send some out to the far seas. This was because they were planning for war in 1944. In this version of history they were planning for war in 1939, which is why they had 6 at sea when war broke out and more were being fitted out.

NAVAL AVIATION

In the real world relations between the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe were poor. In this version of history they were adequate.

The Luftwaffe's equivalent of RAF Coastal Command had 5 gruppen of coastal reconnaissance aircraft. Each gruppe consisted of a staff flight and 3 squadrons. But the quality of the aircraft was poor because they were equipped with flying boats and large seaplanes. The RAF shot down in large numbers, even with aircraft like the Anson and Hudson.

In common with the Kriegsmarine the Luftwaffe did not organise the production of its materiel as well as it could have done. In this version of history it did organise aircraft production more efficiently and some of the extra production was used to increase the size of its naval air arm.

In this version of history the Luftwaffe's coastal command had 9 full strength coastal reconnaissance gruppen. Each gruppe had a stab of 4 aircraft (instead of the normal 3) and 3 squadrons of 12. Thus the total strength was 360 aircraft and there was a massive improvement in quality because they were all equipped with the He111H. 3 of the gruppen were to be re-equipped with the He277 when it became available to give the command a long range reconnaissance capability.

In the real world the command also had 2 squadrons of catapult seaplanes for the battleships and cruisers. There might be more of them in this version of history as the Kriegsmarine had more cruisers in service.

The Luftwaffe was also in the process of creating the air groups for Graff Zeppelin and Aircraft Carrier B. 3 squadrons had been formed by the outbreak of war. In this version of history they still had 3 squadrons which were the air group of the experimental aircraft carrier.

In addition the Germans had what would become X. Fligerkorps. In the real world it had one under strength kampfgeschwader of He111H medium bombers and what would become KG.30 had only 18 Ju88A medium bombers. In this version of history it had 2 full strength kampfgeshwadern with 125 medium bombers each. That is one geschwader stab with 5 aircraft (instead of the normal 4) and 4 gruppen instead of the normal 3 (each had a stab of 3 aircraft and 3 squadrons of 9 aircraft). The force was armed with effective air launched torpedoes (developed by the Navy) and the aircrew were well trained in their use.
 
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