Alt Kriegsmarine

[The Mahnovite]

could have built that pre-war under under cover of their mail delivery business, no reason the tenders could not have been faster.

of course it proved fatal not having ANY bases outside Europe (Greenland and Azores I'm looking at you)

A user named Thegn had suggested a scenario where Germans convert mail delivery seaplane tenders into supply and scout ships to be used as mobile bases and repair hubs for U-boats. That does seem a useful thing, for minimal expenses.

 

[pattersonautobody]

I am under the impression that the German Navy's best chance of doing anything lies with 1. better torpedoes and 2. a strategy of dropping magnetic mines from planes and closing out British ports, including Malta.

The strategy would be both affordable given the resources to create u-boats and a surface fleet is many times more expensive, and doable from a technological perspective.

Ultimately it is a hindsight move, you cannot expect old navy guys to start thinking this way. But, it did work against the Japanese in starving their country to death.

 

[thaddeus]

I am under the impression that the German Navy's best chance of doing anything lies with 1. better torpedoes and 2. a strategy of dropping magnetic mines from planes and closing out British ports, including Malta.

The strategy would be both affordable given the resources to create u-boats and a surface fleet is many times more expensive, and doable from a technological perspective.

my scenario was fleet of large flying boats https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=326926 and u-boats

build the Admiral Hipper-class as panzerschiffe with 11" guns and retain the WWI ships Hessen and Hannover.

10 escorts of a Bremse-class http://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/training/bremse/index.html

build the first 30 of the OTL destroyers (looked good on paper, flaws only revealed during operation, just not build anymore after the war begins)

cancels the larger ships and aircraft carrier projects, 1930s torpedo boats.

still have approx. 600 of the S-boats, R-boats, and M-boats alongside an equal number of converted fishing and cargo ships.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Improved Kriegsmarine

in reality they DID build twice as many if you count their "cousin" the R-boats http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_boat

they could have S-boats, R-boats with the OTL design for coastal duties, and a larger version similar to post-war Jaguar-class (built by Lurssen also) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar-class_fast_attack_craft



been well served to build the 1940 design from the start, scrap the torpedo boats (ALL) built after the 1920s. could have overhauled some of the surviving WWI-era ships, that also burned coal, even if only to use as fleet tenders.



F-boat escorts built to something akin to Bremse (diesel powered and of the correct timeframe) http://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/training/bremse/index.html

that would leave the KM with 10 - 17 of the Bremse-class and possibly 30 of the larger destroyers.

An interesting and feasible proposal.

The Bremse seems to have used the clause in the 1930 London Treaty, that allowed unlimited construction of escort vessels, provided: they did not displace more than 2,000 tons; their speed did not exceed 20 knots; their gun armament did not exceed four 5.9" guns, but unlimited numbers of smaller calibres were permitted; and they could not be armed with torpedoes.

Though there appears to be an error in the Wikipaedia page about the R-Boat. That is the text says 424 were built, but the table of classes only lists 360. My spreadsheet says that 448 were ordered, but only 314 were completed.

The Germans needed every escort vessel it could get to protect its coastal shipping then I'd like more R-boats too, but not if it meant building fewer S-boats.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

IMO there would be no alternative to the Naval agreement of 1935.

So what to do?

- Build early (1934) a small training carrier out of a merchant hull and start to get the knowledges. It should be only a training vessel. Build another one later. Then start building two fleet carriers.

- Start constructing a 38 cm and 40,6/42 cm naval gun earler (1933). Build the twins to be equipped with this gun. Build the Twins earlier and the Bismarck class as well.

- Talk about building a super cruiser with 11" guns, but actually only plan it. Indeed use that as a kind of threat in the talks with Britain, as Britain would not like any German guerre de course fleet

- With that treaty one should build 5 CA, but with only officially 20,8 cm guns, indeed they should be 21 cm (to meet the army caliber)

- build a CL variant of the Hipper class. The M and O classes were not that good.

- As for DD build smaller destroyers with a greater range. Add a small number of heavy destroyers like the Type 1945, perhaps even a kind of scout cruiser

- Skip the Type 1935 and Type 1937 torpedo boats and go for the Type 1939 Fleet torpedo boat directly.

- Build modular and thus reduce the time needed to build a unit. That would be possible to ships up to destroyer size.

- Use the base of the M-Boats to build such an escort/patrol/minesweeper/small torpedo boat, modular and in masses.

- Build S-Boats and enhence them.

- Build U-Boats the same way. Only two types. VII and IX, perhaps some II as training vessels. Later change to XXI.

- R-Boats and KFK as historical.

- Test the torpedoes and find the flaws. Test the shells as well!

- Build up a naval air force with torpedo bombers and also marines

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Improved Kriegsmarine Miscellaneous

I am under the impression that the German Navy's best chance of doing anything lies with 1. better torpedoes and 2. a strategy of dropping magnetic mines from planes and closing out British ports, including Malta.

The strategy would be both affordable given the resources to create u-boats and a surface fleet is many times more expensive, and doable from a technological perspective.

Ultimately it is a hindsight move, you cannot expect old navy guys to start thinking this way. But, it did work against the Japanese in starving their country to death.

The German Admirals thought World War II to break out in the middle 1940s and planned accordingly. We know that the war will break out in 1939 and need to plan accordingly.

Therefore if I was Admiral Raeder I would have taken heed of your second point and built up a much bigger stock of magnetic mines by September 1939.

I would have also followed your first point and made sure that the Kriegsmarine's torpedoes worked. If possible I would also have put more effort into developing faster and more accurate torpedoes, as well as reliable detonators. That is try to get homing torpedoes into service sooner, and if I knew about them, buy a licence to built oxygen driven torpedoes from the Japanese.

Although all the aircraft belonged to the Luftwaffe, torpedo development was the job of the Kriegsmarine and they failed to develop an effective air launched torpedo. The Luftwaffe eventually had to buy torpedoes from the Italians, but that wasn't until 1942. Therefore I would do everything possible to develop an effective air launched torpedo by 1939.

The Luftwaffe's equivalent of RAF Coastal Command was equipped with seaplanes and flying boats at the start of the war which even aircraft like the Anson and Skua made mincemeat of. I would not increase its size, but I would equip all the Kustenfligerstaffeln (literally coastal flying squadrons) with the He 111.

Meanwhile what became Fliegerkorps X consisted of 2 understrength bomber geshwadern, one of which was the first Ju88 unit. The Luftwaffe did not think maritime operations were unimportant, but as Germany was a land power they had to build up an adequate tactical air force to support the Army first. However, if the Germans could build more aircraft before the war (and had Milch been in charge of aircraft production at the time instead of Udet it could have been done) I would use all the extra production to create the largest possible anti-shipping force. Which would be better armed because they had an effective air launched torpedo.

Also Milch might not have cancelled the DB.603 aero engine and allowed Heinkel to re-design Bomber A around it. Therefore the He 277 would have been ready in time to be built instead of the Fw200C.

The Germans started to develop radar 3 years before the British and with a greater sense of urgency I think they could have had search and gunnery sets for use against aircraft and surface ships in large scale service at the start of the war. One way to achieve this is better co-operation between the services so the maximum use of Germany's scientific resources is made. E.g. the Kriegsmarine didn't have PPI for their radar, but they might have if they had known that the Luftwaffe had developed it.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

An interesting and feasible proposal.

The Bremse seems to have used the clause in the 1930 London Treaty, that allowed unlimited construction of escort vessels, provided: they did not displace more than 2,000 tons; their speed did not exceed 20 knots; their gun armament did not exceed four 5.9" guns, but unlimited numbers of smaller calibres were permitted; and they could not be armed with torpedoes.

Though there appears to be an error in the Wikipaedia page about the R-Boat. That is the text says 424 were built, but the table of classes only lists 360. My spreadsheet says that 448 were ordered, but only 314 were completed.

The Germans needed every escort vessel it could get to protect its coastal shipping then I'd like more R-boats too, but not if it meant building fewer S-boats.

I forgot to add the Bremse type as frigate in my list. Also I would add the MZ-boats as escorts as well. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrzweckboot_1943

 

[thaddeus]

the idea that MORE resources would be devoted to KM is not feasible, my rule is to look at historical tonnage and propose equal or lesser amount.

more realistic to base any PODs off of real working designs also.

for example my scenario for escorts built to Bremse specs, planned to accompany the panzerschiffe it would be logical to have diesel engines instead of the flop F1 - F10 that were built.

(and the DDs were built with high pressure engines tested in Brummer so it is not realistic to say scrap them since, on paper they appeared excellent design, just stop build after first 30 ordered prewar)

there was a shortage of fuel and this was known prewar so it seems logical to build M-boats with coal fired engines from start? same reason to keep a few of the light cruisers from WWI instead of building the fleet tenders.

keep the two WWI BBs taken out of service in late 1930s, Hessen and Hannover, and build the Admiral Hipper -class as panzerschiffe (really only need to add 11" guns) and you would have 12 larger ships with 11" guns, eight with long range diesel engines.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Improved Kriegsmarine - Battleships and Aircraft Carriers

IMO there would be no alternative to the Naval agreement of 1935.

So what to do?

- Build early (1934) a small training carrier out of a merchant hull and start to get the knowledges. It should be only a training vessel. Build another one later. Then start building two fleet carriers.

- Start constructing a 38 cm and 40,6/42 cm naval gun earler (1933). Build the twins to be equipped with this gun. Build the Twins earlier and the Bismarck class as well.

- Talk about building a super cruiser with 11" guns, but actually only plan it. Indeed use that as a kind of threat in the talks with Britain, as Britain would not like any German guerre de course fleet

- With that treaty one should build 5 CA, but with only officially 20,8 cm guns, indeed they should be 21 cm (to meet the army caliber)

- build a CL variant of the Hipper class. The M and O classes were not that good.

- As for DD build smaller destroyers with a greater range. Add a small number of heavy destroyers like the Type 1945, perhaps even a kind of scout cruiser

- Skip the Type 1935 and Type 1937 torpedo boats and go for the Type 1939 Fleet torpedo boat directly.

- Build modular and thus reduce the time needed to build a unit. That would be possible to ships up to destroyer size.

- Use the base of the M-Boats to build such an escort/patrol/minesweeper/small torpedo boat, modular and in masses.

- Build S-Boats and enhence them.

- Build U-Boats the same way. Only two types. VII and IX, perhaps some II as training vessels. Later change to XXI.

- R-Boats and KFK as historical.

- Test the torpedoes and find the flaws. Test the shells as well!

- Build up a naval air force with torpedo bombers and also marines

That's similar to what I would have done.

However, as we know that WWII would break out in 1939 my opinion is that the Germans should not have built any aircraft carriers because they didn't have enough time to build them and learn how to use them. Furthermore it was unlikely that they would produce an adequate design first time.

I think your proposal for an experimental merchant ship conversion is sensible, but because they would not have the opportunity to profit from the experience gained it would be better to use the resources for something else.

The Anglo-German Naval Agreement gave the Germans enough tonnage to build a third 35,000ton battleship and when the British announced the Lion class, that gave them enough tonnage to built a fourth.

On that basis the Germans planned to lay down Battleship H on 01.10.1937 for completion on 01.01.1941 and Battleship J on 01.05.38 for completion on 01.11.1941. However, a shortage of suitable slipways and the usual overlong design process meant they weren't laid down until the summer of 1939.

That information came from German Capital Ships of World War II by M.J. Whitley. According to him Aircraft Carrier A was laid down in December 1936, but Aircraft Carrier B was begun first because slipway availability allowed her to be laid down in September 1936.

With hindsight Battleships H and J should have been repeat Bismarcks build in pace of Aircraft Carriers A and B.

The 6 H class battleships that were ordered in the real world were suspended after war broke out so that the resources could be used to accelerate the completion of the ships they already had under construction. However, it would have been better to have adopted this policy after Munich, which is what I have done.

The only change I would have made to the Bismarck design is to give it a secondary armament of 5.1" DP guns instead of the mix of 5.9" LA and 4.1" AA guns fitted in the real world. The weight saved would be used to improve their armour protection systems. The 5.1" DP guns were fitted to armoured versions of the twin turrets fitted to the Z-boats instead of the 5" and 5.9" guns they received in the real world.

I was interested to learn on this thread, that the 11" gun limit on German battleships was imposed by the Allied Control Commission, not the Treaty of Versailles. For a long time I have wanted to build the panzerschiffen with four 15" guns in two twin turrets, but could not think of a way to get around the gun calibre limits of the Treaty. I also thought that the Deutschland class hull might not be big enough to take the weight of the 15" turrets.

If that could be done the Scharnhorst class could be completed with six 15" guns in 3 twin turrets. As this gun and its mounting would already be in production it might be easier to produce the sixteen twin 15" turrets I need for Battleships F, G, H and J.

My wildest dream is to go one step further and built an extra pair of Bismarcks instead of the Scharnhorst class. The latter had more powerful machinery than the Bismarck so that should not be a problem. The extra pair of 15" turrets should not be too hard to build. The stumbling blocks would be the extra steel and shipyard workers needed to complete a larger ship in the same amount of time.

This brings me onto the next problem. The overloading of the shipbuilding industry in particular and industry in general caused by German rearmament. We know that Germany needed as many ships as it could get by September 1939, but the shipyards could not cope with the load that was placed upon them.

At the end of 1935 the scheduled completion dates for Aircraft Carriers A and B were April and November 1939 respectively. Bismarck and Tirpitz should have taken 39 months to build. They actually built in 49 and 51 months respectively. Each Hipper class cruiser should have taken 36 months to build. However, Hipper and Blucher were about 10 months late; Prinz Eugen was 15 months late; and the delay in building Lutzow and Seydlitz meant neither was completed.

This is why in common with you I want to use mass production techniques wherever possible. If they were employed from 1934 I think the Germans could have built more ships up to destroyer size with fewer workers. This would release labour that could be put to work on the bigger ships.

But it's not only the hulls, its also the machinery and guns, which could be built in greater numbers if there was more standardisation. For example the Hipper class would be armed with twelve 5.9" in four triple turrets so they could use the mounting already in production for the light cruisers. It would also simplify the production of ammunition.

However, this would not be enough and therefore my solution is to reduce the overloading by ordering fewer warships in the first place. Therefore no ships were built in place of Aircraft Carriers A and B. The steel, machinery, armour and shipyard workers were used to complete Bismarck, Tripitz and the Hipper class cruisers closer to schedule.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Using a little bit of hindsight I wondered what could be done better. This is mostly a thought exercise rather than what could actually have been done but I am trying to avoid going too far afield.

First thought is the design effort wasted on the Improved Panzerschiffe Designs that were Panzerschiffe D & E is ditched. Just jump straight to working on a true capital ship design and lay down a proven design in the mean time. So two more Panzerschiffe are laid down in 1933. Eventually we get to something like the historic Twins design and hopefully managed to get Hitler to waive his silly armament restrictions. So the final design looks like the intended rebuild of Gneisenau; 35,000 tons, longer hull, 3x2 15" guns and a bit slower but the longer hull helps.

I would really like to do instead is either ditch the High Pressure Steam Propulsion all together or at least go with a combined Diesel and Steam Power Plant but the Germans appear set on their path for the big ships and I can't come up with a good explanation why they would make such a radical change.

Also ditch the overweight Heavy Cruiser designs, just keep building pocket BB's. By now the defects have been worked out. So Admiral Hipper and her sisters are of same class as the Pocket BB's.

When 1936 comes around, just repeat the Alt-Scharnhorst class instead of the historic Bismarck Class. Ditch the carriers built from the Kiel up, if there is a massive need for carriers then convert an bulk carrier, ore ship or tanker so the Kriegsmarine can get some experience with the type. In their place lay down more pocket BB's.

If the Navy had been less closed minded in the 1920's they should have sent naval officers to do long trips to visit the USN and taken long hard looks at USN carriers. The Army sent officers repeatedly over to the USA in the 1920's and early 30's and they were warmly received.

In any case this should result in a more effective and slightly cheaper than historic fleet. Net result is the same, its hunted down one by one till only a few remain and they surrender at the end.

Name Laid Down Launched Completed Slipway
Panzerschiffe D (Derfflinger ) 8/1/1933 4/23/1935 5/2/1937 Kriegsmarinewerft Wilhelmshaven
Panzerschiffe E (Mackensen) 9/1/1933 5/24/1935 6/2/1937 Deutsche Werke Kiel
Gneisenau (Alt) 6/23/1935 1/25/1937 7/8/1938 Deutsche Werke Kiel
Scharnhorst (Alt) 5/23/1935 9/10/1936 12/15/1938 Kriegsmarinewerft Wilhelmshaven
Panzerschiffe F (Admiral Hipper) 7/6/1935 2/6/1937 4/29/1939 Blohm & Voß Hamburg #2
Panzerschiffe G (Blücher) 8/15/1935 6/8/1937 9/20/1939 Deutsche Werke Kiel #2
Panzerschiffe H (Prinz Eugen) 4/23/1936 8/22/1938 8/1/1940 Germaniawerft Kiel #2
Bismarck (Alt) 7/1/1936 2/14/1939 8/24/1940 Blohm & Voß Hamburg #1
Tirpitz (Alt) 11/2/1936 4/1/1939 2/25/1941 Kriegsmarinewerft Wilhelmshaven #2
Panzerschiffe J (Roon) 12/28/1936 12/8/1938 12/17/1940 Deutsche Werke Kiel #1
Panzerschiffe K (Seydlitz) 12/29/1936 1/19/1939 1/28/1941 Deschimag Bremen
Panzerschiffe L (Lützow) 8/2/1937 7/1/1939 7/10/1941 Deschimag Bremen
Panzerschiffe M (Yorck) 9/21/1938 6/12/1940 6/22/1942 Germaniawerft Kiel #2

Interesting

So effectively heavy merchant raiding Cruisers

A mix of Aux raiding Ships, Panzerschiffe and Submarines would prove to be a problematic combination + heavier units threatening a breakout and forcing the home fleet to keep 2x units at home (ie 8 Captial ships).

The inclusion of 15" guns on the Twins would result in a response from Britain as this threatens the 3 BCs (which would then be the only RN ships capable of capturing them)

Perhaps escelation of the KGVs + additional units with the original armament kept to 3 x Quad 14" turrets

The RN maintained that it needed 2 units to match 1 enemy unit and as the twins and then B+T would make the Queens and Revenges obsolete for the purposes of catching them.


I think the response you would see from the British regarding the building of Multiple Panzerschiffe rpost 36 would be developing the Towns as slightly heavier 8" Cruisers *4 x Triple 8" rather than the Triple 6" Turrets (ie an alt HMS Belfast)


And the KGVs, RnR and Hood would eat them, a modern 12 gun 8" Heavy Town class Crusier would probably out shoot them as would any hunting group of lesser sized cruisers (i.e. Battle of River Plate)


But it would pose a serious problem for the RN and French Navy - if the majority where at sea prior to the start of any war - certainly until they where hunted down or blockaded.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

Slip 1 B&V (Blohm & Voss)*
Slip 2 B&V *
Slip 1 KMW (Kriegsmarinewerft)
Slip 2 KMW *
Slip 1 Deutsche Werke *
Slip 2 Deutsche Werke
Slip 2 Germaniawerft
Slip 1 Deschimag *
Slip 2 Deschimag *
Slip 1 Howaldtswerft

These are the slips of the German yards having built cruiser sized warships and above. * means, the slips were used or planned to be used for capital ships. For my plan I am starting earlier and won't have Hitler and Göring in power, as they were a problem (not only because of their interferences here of course). Also I am starting once the Gleichberechtigung was accepted in Geneva.

1933:

Laid down:

BB D (Scharnhorst) slip 1 KMW. 18 months (July 1935) --> Jan 37 completed

BB E (Gneisenau) Slip 1 Deutsche Werke, 18 months --> Jan 37

CL F (Nürnberg) Slip 2 Deutsche Werke (DW), 13 months (Feb 35) --> Jan 36

Conversion of a merchant hull to a CVL/CVE

1934:

I assume to get a naval agreement with Britain already this year.

BB F (Bismarck) slip 1 B & V 30 months (Jul 36) --> Jan 38

BB G (Tirpitz) slip 2 KMW 30 months (Dec 36) --> Jan 38

CA G (Admiral Hipper) slip 2 B & V 18 months (Jul 35) --> Jul 37

CA H (Blücher) slip 2 DW 18 months (Jul 35) --> Jul 37

CL J (München) Slip 1 KMW (Jan 35) (mod. Admiral Hipper class design with 12 15 cm guns) --> Jan 37

Conversion of another merchant hull to a CVL/ CVE

1935:

CV A (Graf Zeppelin) Slip 1 Germaniawerft (Jan 37) --> Jan 39

CA K (Prinz Eugen) Slip 1 KMW (Feb 37) --> Feb 39

CA L (Seydlitz) Slip 1 DW (Feb 37) .--> Feb 39

CL M (Breslau) Slip 1 Howaldt (Jul 36) --> Jul 38

I am preparing for the 2nd round of capital ships. Until now I can still lay down a BB, a CV, 1 CA and a CL due to the original treaty. However, as the British plan to expand their navy, I can do the same. They did order up to the end of 1936 additional 5 BB, 5 CV and about 190.000 ts CL. This means I can use 100.000 ts BB, 60.000 ts CV and 72.000 ts CL.

1936:

BB H (Hindenburg) Slip 1 Deschimag (Jan 38) --> Jan 40

BB J (Friedrich der Große) Slip 1 B & V (Sep 38) --> Sep 40

CA N (Lützow) slip 2 Deschimag (Jul 37) --> Jul 39

CV B (Peter Strasser) slip 2 B & V (Jan 38) --> Jan 40

CL O (Hamburg) slip 2 DW (Jul 37) --> Jul 39

CL P (Kolberg) slip 1 Howaldt (Jan 38) --> Jan 40

1937:

BB K (Großer Kurfürst) Slip 2 KMW (Feb 39) --> Feb 41

BB L (Mackensen) Slip 1 DW (May 39) --> May 41

CV C (Richthofen) Slip 1 Germaniawerft (Mar 39) --> Mar 41

CL Q (Stuttgart) slip 2 DW (Mar 39) --> Mar 41

CL R (Dresden) slip 2 Deschimag (Mar 39) --> Mar 41

CL S (Magdeburg) Slip 1 KMW (Mar 39) --> Mar 41

This is the last year to lay down a BB. This is officially done in expectation of the British laying down 5 Lion class BB. Still open 1 CV and 4 CL.

1938:

CV D (Boelcke) Slip 1 Deschimag (Feb 40) --> Feb 42

CL T (Rostock) Slip 2 B & V (Oct 39) --> Oct 41

CL U Slip 1 Deschimag (Oct 39) --> Oct 41

CL V Slip 1 B & V (Jan 40) --> Jan 42

CL W Slip 1 Howaldt (Oct 39) --> Oct 41

Last year to lay down a cruiser sized ship or above. If Britain had ordered a few CL more, 2 or three CL are missing.

The data given include already pauses due to lacking material and manpower.

 

[thaddeus]

what stands out in German victory in the Baltic? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_evacuation_of_Tallinn

no capital ships and very few other ships involved. close cooperation between KM and LW.

since the KM was a blank slate it could have been rebuilt with new strategy, not replay the naval buildup versus Great Britain then resort to u-boat blockade of WWI.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

what stands out in German victory in the Baltic? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_evacuation_of_Tallinn

no capital ships and very few other ships involved. close cooperation between KM and LW.

since the KM was a blank slate it could have been rebuilt with new strategy, not replay the naval buildup versus Great Britain then resort to u-boat blockade of WWI.

The victory in the Baltic was also because the KM had a strong task force there, including the Tirpitz, for the case of a Soviet fleet attack. That never came. Also cooperation with the Luftwaffe had to be better, of course.

Anyway, it is a myth you can win the war without capital ships. You need them, even only as fleet in being. A single ship might be able to deny areas for the enemy.

Furthermore, a guerre de course fleet, as it was indeed proposed by Raeder in 1932, was the very last the British would accept. They were totally aware, they would run in troubles.

In my list Germany would have 4 BB, 3 PB, 1 CV, 2 CVE, 5 CA and 9 CL active as of September 1939. Within half a year another BB, CV and CL would come and theoretically the fleet would consist of 8 BB, 4 CV, 2 CVE, 5 CA, 3 PB and 17 CL at the beginning of 1942, enough to create severe headaches to the RN. They would have more ships, but indeed less modern ones.

 

[Redbeard]

While it indeed is intriguing to debate and invent alternate designs I think we have to remember that in case of pre WWII Germany the most certain way to an early termination of the nazi regime would be any action which by the British would be identified as increased naval ambitions.

In the OTL Anglo-German Naval Agreement (AGNA) of 1935 the Germans got more than they had hoped for and where exactly the British limit would be is impossible to say now, but I would say that each extra design capable of operating on the high seas would risk having the British giving in to French wishes to stop Rhineland re-occupation/Annexation of Austria/Munich Agreement.

I would specifically warn against building Panzerschiffe as they from the start were seen upon with great concern in GB. They were obvious commerce raiders, and it would be difficult to find anything more provoking to the British. Oceangoing U-boats would be similar in effect.

Prepare some designs, store some strategic materials and train personnel – but keep a low profile.

Regards

Redbeard

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Improved Kriegsmarine - Cruisers

Nurnberg would be an 8,000 ton version of Leipzig, rather than a repeat of the Leipzig design. This is what the Germans actually wanted to do, because the larger hull would have given better hull strength, allowed for superior protection for the turrets and magazines, permitted a heavier flak armament and an increase in speed. However, the designers spent the years 1933-35 on what would become the Hipper class and as a result Cruiser F had to be a repeat of Leipzig because no other design was available.

In March 1937 it was expected that each Hipper class heavy cruiser would take 36 months to build and that they would be completed between July 1938 and July 1940. However, only 3 of them were completed between April 1939 and August 1940. This was due in general because the German economy was overloaded by German rearmament; and in particular because the naval programme initiated in response to the Anglo-German Naval Agreement overloaded the German shipbuilding industry.

In this version of history the Germans order 5 more improved Leipzigs instead of the Hippers. This is in part because the improved Leipzig with its combined low pressure steam a diesel (COSAD?) plant would be more reliable and give the ship longer range was a more effective warship. It is also to reduce the construction time. First it was an existing design so components such as the triple 5.9" gun turrets and machinery were already in production. This avoided the need to spend time designing a new ship and the re-tooling that might be required for the 8" turrets and high pressure steam plant if the Hippers were built. Secondly as the ships at 8,000 tons were 6,000 tons smaller than the Hipper class less steel was required for the structure and armour plate. And thirdly as it was a smaller ship it might not take as long to build in the first place. For example in April 1938 it was expected that the Cruiser M class of 7,800 tons would take 30 months to build.

Construction would also be speeded by reshuffling the orders. Blohm und Voss, Deutsche Werke, Germania and Wilhelmshaven Dockyard would concentrate on large warships (cruisers and larger). Meanwhile all Z-boats were built by Deschimag and all T-boats by Schichau to make it easier to employ large scale production methods. However, apart from the 18 extra T-boats built instead of the F-boats the number of destroyers completed before the outbreak of war was the same as the real world. As related in an earlier post Graff Zeppelin and Aircraft Carrier B were not begun so that resources could be concentrated on other ships. The slip ways were instead used to build Seydlitz and Lutzow, which in the real world were built at Deschimag.

Therefore:

• Blücher completed on 06/02/1938 instead of 20/09/1939;
• Hipper completed on 06/01/1938 instead of 29/04/1939;
• Prinz Eugen completed on 23/10/1938 instead of 01/08/40;
• Seydlitz completed on 29/06/1939 instead of never;
• Lützow completed on 30/03/1939 instead of never. Strictly speaking she should have been completed on 02/02/1940. However, she was laid down on 30/09/36 at Germania taking the place of Aircraft Carrier B, instead of 02/08/1937 at Deschimag.

The Germans planned to cure the faults in the K class, Leipzig and Nurnberg by rebuilding the K class with 1.4 meters of extra beam and thickening the side plating of Leipzig and Nurnberg. However, the outbreak of war meant that only Karlsure was rebuilt. The K class rebuilds were expected to take 11 months each, but Karlsure's took 18 months (May 1938 and November 1939) and the others would require 6 months work. However, in this version of history the Germans had the advantage of only having 4 ships to rebuild because Nurnberg did not need to be rebuilt and they were planning to be ready for war in 1939 instead of 1944. Therefore they gave the refits for the K class and Leipzig higher priority so that all 4 ships were ready by the end of 1938.

According to Whitley in German Cruisers of World War II the Germans issued the requirement for an 8,000 ton light cruiser in May 1936, but it took until April 1938 to produce an acceptable design and the first 6 ships were ordered a month later. Cruiser M would have been laid down in November 1939 and completed in May 1942. She was to be the first of 11 ships which the Kriegsmarine planned to complete by the end of 1944. However, none of these ships were built because World War II broke out earlier than planned.

In this version of history the Germans ordered 6 light cruisers (total 48,000 tons) instead of 5 heavy cruisers (officially 50,000 tons) initially and the sixth ship (Cruiser M) would be completed in the second half of 1939. Then in April 1936 they decided to build more light cruisers of the improved Leipzig type rather than what became the Cruiser M of the real world. 6 ships were ordered in May 1936 and another 6 ships were ordered in 1938. The intention was to lay them down at a rate of 3 per year (1937-40) and complete them at the same rate 1940-43. This would give them a total of 24 cruisers by the end of 1943. However, the British at about the same time were planning to increase their cruiser fleet from the 50 allowed by the First London Treaty to 70 and then 100 ships by the middle 1940s.

In the real world the Germans actually had one heavy and 6 light cruisers, plus another 10 ships building or on order in September 1939. Apart from the Karlsure which was refitting none of the existing ships were satisfactory and only 2 of the 10 projected ships would be completed. In my version of history the Germans would have had 12 light cruisers plus another 12 building or on order in September 1939. 11 of the 12 existing cruisers were satisfactory ships, but at most only 3 of the projected ships would be completed. However, that it still a grand total of 15 cruisers instead of 9 and they were better ships.

 

[thaddeus]

In the real world the Germans actually had one heavy and 6 light cruisers, plus another 10 ships building or on order. Apart from the Karlsure which was refitting none of the existing ships were satisfactory and only one of the 10 projected ships would be completed. In my version of history the Germans would have had 12 light cruisers plus another 12 building or on order. 11 of the 12 existing cruisers were satisfactory ships, but at most only 3 of the projected ships would be completed. However, that it still a grand total of 15 cruisers instead of 9 and they were better ships

thanks for the info, my scenario always builds the Admiral Hipper-class UP (with 11" guns) but this is a better idea.

think I would continue that and build 1 -2 more (improved) Scharnhorst-class instead of the 2 Bismarcks (keeping the 11" guns though)

 

[pdf27]

This has got me wondering, although it's probably been answered before - what happens if the Germans go for the "freak fleet" option (cruisers and submarines) that the RN was so worried about in OTL. Assume roughly the same tonnage and funding as OTL, and that the decision happens about the time the Nazis come into power.

So this would have Raeder failing to convince Hitler that the Panzerschiffe are the right way to go, and Germany ending up with a fleet of cruisers, destroyers and submarines. Whether the Anglo-German Naval Agreement still happens is rather dubious - that fleet is exactly what the British are scared of, so they would quite possibly take a much harder line with the Germans.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

This has got me wondering, although it's probably been answered before - what happens if the Germans go for the "freak fleet" option (cruisers and submarines) that the RN was so worried about in OTL. Assume roughly the same tonnage and funding as OTL, and that the decision happens about the time the Nazis come into power.

So this would have Raeder failing to convince Hitler that the Panzerschiffe are the right way to go, and Germany ending up with a fleet of cruisers, destroyers and submarines. Whether the Anglo-German Naval Agreement still happens is rather dubious - that fleet is exactly what the British are scared of, so they would quite possibly take a much harder line with the Germans.

Why should they want to make Britain furious? That was the LAST the Germans wanted to do.

 

[GarethC]

This has got me wondering, although it's probably been answered before - what happens if the Germans go for the "freak fleet" option (cruisers and submarines) that the RN was so worried about in OTL. Assume roughly the same tonnage and funding as OTL, and that the decision happens about the time the Nazis come into power.

So this would have Raeder failing to convince Hitler that the Panzerschiffe are the right way to go, and Germany ending up with a fleet of cruisers, destroyers and submarines. Whether the Anglo-German Naval Agreement still happens is rather dubious - that fleet is exactly what the British are scared of, so they would quite possibly take a much harder line with the Germans.

There won't be an AGNA. The whole point of it was to wed the KM to a mixed fleet with a battleship centrepiece, but keep it too small to threaten the similar (but larger) RN.

If the yards are focused on 11" commerce raiders and long-range submarines, then London will conclude (rightly) that this is a strategy aimed squarely at strangling Britain, and look at all the things you can do about it.

Expect something like financial support for French intervention in the Rhineland, backing for Spanish Republicanism, Anglo-French acceptance of the Italian intervention in Abyssinia leading to a successful Stresa Front keeping Italy opposed to any Rhineland and later Anschluss - pick some or all of those.

Which will probably thwart German ambitions well before a Sudeten crisis - and if there is one, the Czechs will probably end up fighting.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

This has got me wondering, although it's probably been answered before - what happens if the Germans go for the "freak fleet" option (cruisers and submarines) that the RN was so worried about in OTL. Assume roughly the same tonnage and funding as OTL, and that the decision happens about the time the Nazis come into power.

So this would have Raeder failing to convince Hitler that the Panzerschiffe are the right way to go, and Germany ending up with a fleet of cruisers, destroyers and submarines. Whether the Anglo-German Naval Agreement still happens is rather dubious - that fleet is exactly what the British are scared of, so they would quite possibly take a much harder line with the Germans.

Exactly - so this change in fleet format would easily change what the British planned for the 1936 LNT - less emphisis on new Battleships and the need to keep the older ones in service allowing for more Cruisers to be built

If the German navy went the Cruiser / Submarine route then is that not easier for Britain to 'over match'

For a start the Towns (probably from the 3rd batch) become true heavy Cruisers with the planned triple 8" Turrets and the subsequant design (Crown Colony class) are more of these Batch 3 heavy Towns.

With no Twins and no B and T - the need to keep the Revenge class in service dissappears and or more of the Queens and Battle Cruisers can be taken out of service in the late 30s for Deep Refits.

With the 5 Revenges taken out of service Britain can start building the KGVs sooner (as a 1 for 1 replacement for the 5 Revenges) before 1937.

Obviously the Increased numbers of submarines is going to create all sorts of warning flags as this can only mean one thing as far as Britain is concerned.

Political pressure aside I can see such a Submarine building programme being mirrored by a massive escort programe and increased numbers of Destroyers being built for the British.

USW (Unrestricted Submarine Warfare) is a major issue no matter if Germany has 40 Submarines or 200 Submarines - but this aside such a fleet IMO is better for the UK in one way as it allows them to focus on building a larger escort / Destroyer fleet and concentrate on ASW and Escort/Convoy techniques earlier.