Alt Kriegsmarine

[HMS Warspite]

With historic levels of design effort and building intensity that is correct. Your core assumption is that the 15" gun was finished as fast as it could, you have not presented any evidence that this is true. To be fair I am assuming it can be speed up and haven't presented any solid evidence it could on my end. I know the Germans split their design effort between new 11", paper studies of a 350mm gun, 8" gun, 15" gun and 16" gun by WW2. Here they only need to work on 11" and 15" guns. Also till Bismarck is laid down there there is no rush on the 15" gun either. Again I am seeing a case that the 15" gun COULD be speed up BUT its pure guess work on my end.

If you see the historic Service date as holy write then there isn't anything for either us to say on the subject. I believe there is wiggle room, if you don't then you don't.



No such clause is in the treaty. The Inter Allied Commission of Control put the 11" gun limit in place and they left in 1927 or 28. Weimar by the 30's had started the path to breaking the treaty. Weimar authorized the Pocket BB's and knew what they were and represented. The Weimar government authorized CA construction and DD's that became the Type 1934 and a Carrier. All were in overt breach of the treaty unlike building 15" guns and even that was a limit of no more than one barrel per year by the IACOC and again they were gone by the 30's.


Michael

Some Treaty Restrictions:


ARTICLE 168.
The manufacture of arms, munitions, or any war material, shall only be carried out in factories or works the location of which shall be communicated to and approved by the Governments of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers, and the number of which they retain the right to restrict. Within three months from the coming into force of the present Treaty, all other establishments for the manufacture, preparation, storage or design of arms, munitions, or any war material whatever shall be closed down. The same applies to all arsenals except those used as depots for the authorised stocks of munitions. Within the same period the personnel of these arsenals will be dismissed.

Article 192

The warships in commission of the German fleet must have on board or in reserve only the allowance of arms, munitions and war material fixed by the Principal Allied and Associated Powers. Within a month from the fixing of the quantities as above, arms, munitions and war material of all kinds, including mines and torpedoes, now in the hands of the German Government and in excess of the said quantities, shall be surrendered to the Governments of the said Powers at places to be indicated by them. Such arms, munitions and war material will be destroyed or rendered useless.
All other stocks, depots or reserves of arms, munitions or naval war material of all kinds are forbidden.
The manufacture of these articles in German territory for, and their export to, foreign countries shall be forbidden.



ARTICLE 196.
All fortified works and fortifications, other than those mentioned in Section XIII (Heligoland) of Part III (Political Clauses for Europe) and in Article 195, now established within fifty kilometres of the German coast or on German islands off that coast shall be considered as of a defensive nature and may remain in their existing condition.
No new fortifications shall be constructed within these limits. The armament of these defences shall not exceed, as regards the number and calibre of guns, those in position at the date of the coming into force of the present Treaty. The German Government shall communicate forthwith particulars thereof to all the European Governments. On the expiration of a period of two months from the coming into force of the present Treaty the stocks of ammunition for these guns shall be reduced to and maintained at a maximum figure of fifteen hundred rounds per piece for calibres of 4.1-inch and under, and five hundred rounds per piece for higher calibres.

 

[miketr]

Warspite with respect did you read the terms before you posted them? In post #10 of this thread you said...

...Germany had been forbidden to developpe and construct such weapons in the Versailles Treaty...​

I repeat nothing in the treaty prevented Germany from designing a 15" gun if they wanted. That was the inter allied commission of controll and THAT group put the limit of 11" guns in place and no more that one barrel per year of anything larger. You see some reference to this with article 168 that you copied. The sections you REALLY want to be looking at are 203 to 210 and that group was disbanded in the late 20's. Germany could have R&D a 15" / 380mm gun in 1925 if they wanted to but production would been limited to one per year by the IACOC.

I am sorry if this post is comming off as rude, that is NOT my intent, I have a cold and my head is a little cloudy.

Michael

 

[hasdrubal barca]

The goal is something more useful than Historic at same cost level.

Michael

Wouldn't the most useful thing be to have the largest number of u-boats possible by 1939, not surface forces?

 

[Garrison]

Wouldn't the most useful thing be to have the largest number of u-boats possible by 1939, not surface forces?

With hindsight perhaps but:

Through the 1930's Nazi Germany wasn't really planning on fighting Britain so a major commitment to U-Boats requires a change in strategy. If they do change strategy then the build up of U-Boats in much larger numbers will be a red flag to the British and their political and military stance is likely to be altered in response.

 

[miketr]

With hindsight perhaps but:

Through the 1930's Nazi Germany wasn't really planning on fighting Britain so a major commitment to U-Boats requires a change in strategy. If they do change strategy then the build up of U-Boats in much larger numbers will be a red flag to the British and their political and military stance is likely to be altered in response.

Mass production of you boats would be a much larger red flag. Perhaps Munich talks are affected. It would be easier for the RN to order more escorts in response.

Michael

 

[hasdrubal barca]

With hindsight perhaps but:

Through the 1930's Nazi Germany wasn't really planning on fighting Britain so a major commitment to U-Boats requires a change in strategy. If they do change strategy then the build up of U-Boats in much larger numbers will be a red flag to the British and their political and military stance is likely to be altered in response.

Should Germany then not have agreed to the Anglo-Ger naval treaty of 1935 and instead acted like war with Britain was inevitable?

 

[miketr]

Should Germany then not have agreed to the Anglo-Ger naval treaty of 1935 and instead acted like war with Britain was inevitable?

The AGNA of 1935 was a very important event for Germany. As it makes clear that the Treaty of Versailles is dead and helps open the door to everything else. The Germans hadn't really built to the limit in the treaty by start of war. Yah the H class were illegal and the second two CA's never finished and should have been CLs but over all the Germans never got to within 35% of RN. So what is the down side in singing the the thing?

Michael

 

[hasdrubal barca]

So what is the down side in singing the the thing?

Michael

It, along with a number of other things, convinces Hitler that England can be sidelined without war. If diplomacy with Britian in general was at a low point Hitler would have treated Britian as a greater threat, thus making more preperations for a naval war with them.

 

[HMS Warspite]

Warspite with respect did you read the terms before you posted them? In post #10 of this thread you said...

...Germany had been forbidden to developpe and construct such weapons in the Versailles Treaty...​

I repeat nothing in the treaty prevented Germany from designing a 15" gun if they wanted. That was the inter allied commission of controll and THAT group put the limit of 11" guns in place and no more that one barrel per year of anything larger. You see some reference to this with article 168 that you copied. The sections you REALLY want to be looking at are 203 to 210 and that group was disbanded in the late 20's. Germany could have R&D a 15" / 380mm gun in 1925 if they wanted to but production would been limited to one per year by the IACOC.

I am sorry if this post is comming off as rude, that is NOT my intent, I have a cold and my head is a little cloudy.

Michael

Perhaps it might be more clear, if I mention the issue was not about callibers of big guns, but the numbers to be allowed to produce on a yearly base. This is what the Treaty had restricted and was having to cope with. That was also related to the provided articles, if you read its supplements.

 

[hasdrubal barca]

Mass production of you boats would be a much larger red flag. Perhaps Munich talks are affected.
Michael

Whats the worst that could happen Britian declares war on Germany?

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Improved Kriegsmarine S-Boats

I would build twice as many S-boats.

As far as I know this can be done without cutting the production of other equipment. When war broke out it would be done by introducing mass production techniques earlier.

According to M J Whitley the Germans could not keep all the S-boats built in the real world operational due to a shortage of diesel engines.

Daimler-Benz produced a report in January 1942 that blamed the Kriegsmarine. They said that the volume of orders had not been sufficient to justify an increase of production capacity and that the first bulk order had not been received until the outbreak of war. Whitley wrote, "Obviously, Daimler-Benz considered that they had played their part and that had the Navy been better prepared this bottleneck would not have arisen."

Therefore in my version of history the Navy had been better prepared because it ordered twice as many S-boats and four times as many engines from Daimler-Benz.

The lack of bulk orders to increase production capacity may have been because in 1938 Admiral Schneiwind planned a force of 75 S-boats by 1945. That is 8 flotillas of 8 boats each, plus 11 boats in reserve. Admiral Carls only wanted 30, but Admiral Lutjens wanted 150. In my version of history he won the argument and the target was set at 150 by 1945 in 16 flotillas of 8 with 22 boats in reserve. 74 S-boats had actually been ordered by the start of the war, against 37 but twice as many had been disposed of too.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Improved Kriegsmarine Minesweepers

In the real world all German minesweepers were extremely well designed and suited to a variety of tasks, including escort, ASW, AA cover and minelaying.

The Type 1935 M-boat was terminated after 69 were built in favour of a simplified, coal-burning version called the Type 1940. 127 ships of this type were built including 60 in Dutch shipyards.

The Type 1940 was in turn replaced by the Type 1943. It was an enlarged Type 1940 returning to the Type 1935 armament of two 4.1in DP guns instead of the single 4.1in LA gun carried by the Type 1940. The design was to be built using mass-production techniques that in June 1943 were estimated to reduce construction time from the 30½ weeks of a Type 40 to only 8 weeks, a reduction of 74%. This combined with the versatility of the design led to the termination of the Torpedofangboote and Kriegs U-Jager programmes. However, the growing effectiveness of the Allied strategic bombing offensive meant that only 18 were completed.

In the real world the Germans ordered 4 U-Jagers on 11th November 1938 and planned a total of 10 by 1944. However, their job could be done quite adequately by the M-boats and the whole programme was cancelled in 1940. 20 trawler-based KUJ-boats were ordered on 24th May 1941 and another 22 were planned. However, KUJ 26-42 were cancelled after the M43 was modified to perform A/S duties. My source is unclear, but it appears that only 21 were completed. The same source says that Torpedofangboote Type 1943 TF 25-39 were cancelled at the same time.

In this version of history all M-boats were built to the Type 1943 design so that all 36 M-boats ordered before the war were completed by 1st September 1939. In the real world only 11 had been completed by the outbreak of war and the 36th did not complete until 26th June 1943. 12 A/S versions were ordered in November 1938 in place of the 4 UJ-boats. All 12 were completed in time to take part in the invasion of Norway.

The 48 ships ordered before the war were constructed using normal shipyard methods. However, the ships that were ordered from September 1939 onwards were built using the mass production techniques that in the real world weren't suggested until June 1943. 203 minesweeper versions were completed instead of the 203 M-boats of all types completed between September 1939 and May 1945 in the real world.

Therefore the Germans built 332 Type 1943 M-boats. That is: 251 instead of the 214 minesweepers of all times that were actually built between 1935 and 1945; 42 instead of the 21 KUJ boats actually built; and 39 instead of the 24 TF-boats that were built. Assuming that the extra raw materials were available the Germans would have built 83 extra ships, nearly a third more than the real world.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Improved Kriegsmarine - Destroyers

I have taken this from an essay I wrote a few years ago. Most of the background information was from German Destroyers of World War Two, by M. J. Whitley. However, Roskill in Volume I of the War at Sea said that the Germans could have built more destroyers in the 1930s with a consistent construction policy.

In these essays I used to say that the large destroyers Z-1 to Z-45 were built to the Type 36B design with a dual purpose version of the single 5” gun mounting and reliable machinery. However, in this version of history it was decided to fit them with diesel engines instead of high-pressure steam engines. Therefore all Z-boats were built to the Type 1944 design.Thus the fleet destroyers of this version of history were a great improvement on the unreliable and overloaded ships of the real world.

All other things being equal 40 ships were completed, but in this version of history the total was 50. In the real world boats the demands made on the dockyards and shipbuilders by the chronic machinery problems of the destroyers in service resulted in serious delays.Teams of specialists were continually sent to Norway and France to oversee repairs and examine defects so that the home dockyards were short of technical staff.Thus Z-31 scheduled for completion in December 1941, was delayed until April the following year; all units suffered, in the case of Z-38 and Z-39 by as much as 13 or 14 months.However, in this version of history there were no chronic machinery problems and the ships so that it was possible to get the 7 ships built instead of the Type 1936A(Mob) class into service by the end of 1942.

The German destroyer programme also suffered from indecision over the type of destroyer the Kriegsmarine needed. That is:

· Z-31-42 ordered originally in June and July 1939 to the Type 38B design were cancelled and re-ordered as Type 36A at the outbreak of war with Z-43 to Z-47 projected.
· In June 1940 shortages of raw materials forced the cancellation of Z-35, Z-36 and Z-40 to Z-42, but they were reinstated by the end of the year.
· In February 1941 contracts for the hulls of Z43 to Z-45 and machinery of Z-46 and Z-47 were placed, while Z-40 to Z-42 were re-ordered as Sp-1 to Sp-3. The hulls for Z-46 and Z-47 were ordered in October 1941 and machinery for Sp-4 to Sp-6 in December when it was also decided to complete Z-35, Z-36 and Z-43 to Z-47 to the Type 36B design.
· Meanwhile the turbines of Z-48 to Z-51 to be built to a new Type 41 design were ordered in June 1941.
· By April 1942 priorities for the U-boat programme, the calling up of shipyard workers and a shortage of raw materials had dislocated German plans once more. Work was at a standstill on the 7 Type 36B ships, SP-1 to SP-3 were also suspended as were SP-4 to SP-6 whose hull orders had not been (and never would be) placed.Meanwhile Z-31 to Z-34 and Z-37 to Z-39 were to be completed as Type 36A(Mob) ships.However, the suspension on Z-35, Z-36 and Z-43 to Z-45 was rescinded in June 1942.
· Type 41 was nor favoured by OKM and in June 1943 the first three were ordered as Type 36C ships. My sources are not clear but I assume this is when Z-46 and Z-47 were reinstated as Type 36C ships.Z-51 was re-ordered as the sole Type 42 destroyer to test the new diesel machinery in December 1942.
· Z-52 to Z-56 were to be a development of the Type 42 design the Type 42C later renamed Type 44. I do not have an order date, but Conway's says they were laid down in 1943.However, they were suspended in June 1944 and hulls from Z-44 to Z-51 were suspended in November.

In this version of history continuity allowed the Germans to complete up to Z-42 by the end of 1942 and to Z-50 by the end of 1944. In the real world Z-43 was the only destroyer of this series to be completed.

The Germans also built a series of smaller destroyers for maid of all work duties, which they called torpedo boats. In the real world 12 useful Type 23/24 boats were followed by 21 Type 35/37 boats that spent most of their careers on second-line duties. At about the same time the F-boat was built to screen the pocket battleships. However, this design was also a failure and only 10 were built out of a planned force of 17. The came the excellent Type 39 torpedo boat but only 15 were completed between 1942 and the end of 1944.It was developed into the Type 41 and Type 44 but none of the 24 ships ordered were completed.

In this version of history staff requirements for small destroyers were different in the middle 1930s and 33 extra Type 39 torpedo boats were built instead of the 21 Type 35/37 boats and 10 F-boats. Furthermore the 48 Type 1939 boats built in this version of history had dual purpose single 4.1” guns and an AA fire control system improving their effectiveness as AA escorts.

The Germans also ordered destroyers from Dutch shipyards. None of them were completed, in part because the shipyards did as much as they could to slow down their construction, but also because they were building 60 minesweepers for the Kriegsmarine at the same time. In this version of history a change of construction policy meant they didn't order any minesweepers from Dutch yards, which in turn made more labour available for the destroyer programme. Therefore all 24 of the ships ordered were laid down and at least 6 were completed.

 

[thaddeus]

I would build twice as many S-boats

in reality they DID build twice as many if you count their "cousin" the R-boats http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_boat

they could have S-boats, R-boats with the OTL design for coastal duties, and a larger version similar to post-war Jaguar-class (built by Lurssen also) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar-class_fast_attack_craft

In the real world all German minesweepers were extremely well designed and suited to a variety of tasks, including escort, ASW, AA cover and minelaying. The Type 1935 M-boat was terminated after 69 were built in favour of a simplified, coal-burning version called the Type 1940. 127 ships of this type were built including 60 in Dutch shipyards.The Type 1940 was in turn replaced by the Type 1943. It was an enlarged Type 1940 The design was to be built using mass-production techniques that in June 1943 were estimated to reduce construction time from the 30½ weeks of a Type 40 to only 8 weeks

been well served to build the 1940 design from the start, scrap the torpedo boats (ALL) built after the 1920s. could have overhauled some of the surviving WWI-era ships, that also burned coal, even if only to use as fleet tenders.

German destroyer programme also suffered from indecision over the type of destroyer the Kriegsmarine needed. .

The Germans also built a series of smaller destroyers for maid of all work duties, which they called torpedo boats. In the real world 12 useful Type 23/24 boats were followed by 21 Type 35/37 boats that spent most of their careers on second-line duties. At about the same time the F-boat was built to screen the pocket battleships. However, this design was also a failure and only 10 were built out of a planned force of 17. The came the excellent Type 39 torpedo boat but only 15 were completed between 1942 and the end of 1944.It was developed into the Type 41 and Type 44 but none of the 24 ships ordered were completed.

F-boat escorts built to something akin to Bremse (diesel powered and of the correct timeframe) http://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/training/bremse/index.html

that would leave the KM with 10 - 17 of the Bremse-class and possibly 30 of the larger destroyers.

 

[MattII]

Hm, instead of an actual carrier, could the KM build some reasonable seaplane tenders on cruiser-like hulls (akin to the Stuttgart and Roon conversion of late WW1)?

 

[thaddeus]

Hm, instead of an actual carrier, could the KM build some reasonable seaplane tenders on cruiser-like hulls (akin to the Stuttgart and Roon conversion of late WW1)?

my scenario is to streamline armaments on Admiral Hipper-class (66 guns?) and equip them to launch HE-115 torpedo bombers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_115 or modify the Arado AR-196 with a more powerful engine to carry a torpedo.

not to convert them into carriers, possibly 6 AR-196s or 3-4 HE-115s

 

[MattII]

Oh I wasn't talking about converting, but building specialist high-speed seaplane tenders from the keel up.

 

[thaddeus]

Oh I wasn't talking about converting, but building specialist high-speed seaplane tenders from the keel up.

could have built that pre-war under under cover of their mail delivery business, no reason the tenders could not have been faster.

of course it proved fatal not having ANY bases outside Europe (Greenland and Azores I'm looking at you)

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

A full carrier is better. Also one has to realize, that the naval agreement of 1935 would come, as the British used that to prevent a German cruiser fleet.

 

[MattII]

A full carrier is better.

But requires things the Germans don't have, like experience.

Also one has to realize, that the naval agreement of 1935 would come, as the British used that to prevent a German cruiser fleet.

A minimally armed tender would probably not count as a real cruiser.