Alsace-Lorraine in the Congress of Vienna

[Monty Burns]

What if, for whatever reason, the coalitionaries decide to punish France a bit more, making Alsace-Lorraine an independent state?

The reasons for the frontiers proposed are similar to OTL: the German speaking Alsace plus Metz as a fortress, maybe also Belfort. Probably there would be quite a number of confederation troops stationed in the various fortresses there.

I assume it would be given a prince from a German house, and I also assume it would be a member of the German confederation. Now would it become a Luxemburg, establishing a line of neutral states between Germany and France with France probably being more irredentist?
Or would it someday voluntarily join German unification? What about the Zollverein?

 

[Fabilius]

Now, the congress of Vienna didn´t care much what language people spoke when they made borders but it is an interesting scenario.

The most interesting result would be if Alsace Lorraine kept independence thus depriving France and Germany from conflicting borders.

But would France in the long run accept this. Maybe an earlier Franco-Prussian or even Franco-Austrian war would come up.

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

That's a very creative and intriguing idea!

Yes, I do think it would be a very big Luxemburg.

A crucial point is whether it would be put into the German Confederation?
From an "equilibrium" point of view, let's suppose it is not - this seems the most plausible variant of your scenario. Basically, this depends on whether it is supposed to be one German state, or a buffer state between France and all the Germanies.

I'd prefer to think of it as a buffer state.
Then not only France, but also Britain would be very sensitive about it turning to close into the German camp.

But when we're at it, what'll happen to OTL's Belgium?
I'd suppose the existence of Lotharingia as an independent state would rather spur the Belgian revolution than hinder it (I suppose that the Netherlands obtain the same shape as IOTL). Also, there is hardly a reason why the new Belgium should not be appreciated as much as IOTL by France and Britain.

So the region would look very interesting ...

 

[Elfwine]

Could some form of the old kingdom of Lotharingia - not just the duchy of Lorraine, but all the other bits and pieces being assembled into something be re-constructed? It sounds like a mess in some ways, but that wouldn't occur to anyone right away.

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/900/entity_2514.html

In green.

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

But one would have to add the following:

The bigger German states Prussia and Bavaria were given territories in the West of German even though they weren't that eager for them. These should work as an "Early Warning System" to prevent renewed French invasions into Germany (and beyond).

This central concern of the Cogress would be thwarted by this new state ...

How can you secure it from French invasions?
Virtually only by giving it to Prussia or Bavaria or Austria.
But then you would have to take something else from that power ...

 

[Elfwine]

But one would have to add the following:

The bigger German states Prussia and Bavaria were given territories in the West of German even though they weren't that eager for them. These should work as an "Early Warning System" to prevent renewed French invasions into Germany (and beyond).

This central concern of the Cogress would be thwarted by this new state ...

How can you secure it from French invasions?
Virtually only by giving it to Prussia or Bavaria or Austria.
But then you would have to take something else from that power ...

Well, if its strong enough, its not more necessary than OTL Belgium to hand over to one of the powers.

Which may not be saying much.

I'm just thinking that western Germany doesn't seem to fit anywhere else, so resurrecting "the Kingdom of Lotharingia" as a way to sweep several bits and pieces there (and keep the Prussians and Austrians from controlling it) might do in the short term. In the long term...well, is anyone worried about the next fifty years?

 

[My Username is Inigo Montoya]

Give it to the the former ruling house of Saxony in exchange for Prussia annexing all of their territories in the East?

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

Give it to the the former ruling house of Saxony in exchange for Prussia annexing all of their territories in the East?

Wow. That would be a real mess, but very "Congressish".

In case there is a reason to also punish Saxony more ... ?

 

[Bartholome de Fonte]

As France by that point had Alsace for over a century, the French would have had to reallllllyyyyy pissed off the Coalitions. While the Congress didn't necessarily work off a mixture of ancien regime and a restoration of Pre-Revolutionary Europe, it would have been hard to work out an agreement with such a harsh territorial demand especially with Tallyrand there.

 

[Bartholome de Fonte]

Give it to the the former ruling house of Saxony in exchange for Prussia annexing all of their territories in the East?

There was indeed a suggestion by the Prussians/Russians for the Saxon King to get a Rheinish Kingdom in compensation of losing Saxony but as I said, France would have had to have done something pretty damn bad for Alsace to be considered to be added to the newly founded Kingdom.

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

Well, if its strong enough, its not more necessary than OTL Belgium to hand over to one of the powers.

Which may not be saying much.

This new Lotharingia-Alsace-Saxony-whatever will be much less populated than Belgium.
And Belgium had Britain and France as "guarantee powers" ...

France would rather be a permanent threat to it.

 

[Bartholome de Fonte]

This new Lotharingia-Alsace-Saxony-whatever will be much less populated than Belgium.
And Belgium had Britain and France as "guarantee powers" ...

France would rather be a permanent threat to it.

Excluding the aforementioned problem I said, I don't see why the Rheinish Kingdom wouldn't be apart of the German Confederation. In fact, it would make no sense for it not to be.

 

[Elfwine]

This new Lotharingia-Alsace-Saxony-whatever will be much less populated than Belgium.
And Belgium had Britain and France as "guarantee powers" ...

France would rather be a permanent threat to it.

If you sweep in the other western German stuff, not just Alsace-Lorraine?

I don't know how heavily populated either area is, but really?

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

If you sweep in the other western German stuff, not just Alsace-Lorraine?

That's an excellent idea, in particular because that would annoy both France and the bigger German states.

Alsace-Lorraine-Palatinate still looks a bit hard to maintain, so we should shove a slice of the Rhineland in (but not too much).
For the time loved historic names, the complete thing would probably be called Lotharingia.

What about the title of the ruler? With a Grand Duke in the tiny Luxemburg next door, it should be a king, right?

Then Novak is right, there would hardly be a chance to keep that country out of the GC.

 

[Elfwine]

That's an excellent idea, in particular because that would annoy both France and the bigger German states.

Alsace-Lorraine-Palatinate still looks a bit hard to maintain, so we should shove a slice of the Rhineland in (but not too much).
For the time loved historic names, the complete thing would probably be called Lotharingia.

What about the title of the ruler? With a Grand Duke in the tiny Luxemburg next door, it should be a king, right?

Then Novak is right, there would hardly be a chance to keep that country out of the GC.

Well, France is being annoyed whatever we do if it loses Alsace-Lorraine, and ensuring the bigger German states are kept in some sort of balance is everyone's interest (except the individual German states - as in, Prussia will mind being kept in check, but that happening to Austria not so much).

And yeah, Lotharingia if resurrected is and should be a kingdom. You might even sweep Luxemburg into it if you really want, but that sounds bad. Better to keep it a concentration of stuff you don't have anything better to do with.

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

Very true.

But of course, it wouldn't be exactly the old Lotharingia, as I suppose the Netherlands are installed as IOTL.

 

[Elfwine]

Very true.

But of course, it wouldn't be exactly the old Lotharingia, as I suppose the Netherlands are installed as IOTL.

Yep.

If someone has a better idea for a title for such a thing I'm all ears, but that's the only kingdom I know of that occupied that area. And if the basis is the duchy (dukedom?) of Lorraine, well, it makes sense.

 

[Bartholome de Fonte]

"Hey Frederick, you can't have Saxony anymore. As a consolation, you get to rule a Kingdom that is effectively a buffer for the rest of Germany against France. Enjoy!"

 

[Elfwine]

"Hey Frederick, you can't have Saxony anymore. As a consolation, you get to rule a Kingdom that is effectively a buffer for the rest of Germany against France. Enjoy!"

He doesn't even get a promotion in title from this, does he? I'm not sure what Saxony was at this point.

 

[Monty Burns]

Making the "buffer" bigger is an interesting idea. But IMHO it increases the likelihood that it ends in a later Germany. Alsaciennes may be willing to stay out, but people from Palatinate, Saar and Mosel valley?

Considering the defense of Aslace (no matter how big): If it were part of the German confederation, it could have fortresses with confederate troops stationed on the territory - such as Luxemburg or Baden had IOTL. That should keep the Prussians and Austrians in for defense.

Considering France "pissing off" the coalitionists: it did. Significantly. Nevertheless the coalitionists' unity fell apart as soon as the war was over. And Britain was more interested in the If you take out that-French-guy-I-forgot-the-name-off it might succeed. If Napoleon wins at Waterloo so that the 100 days last 200 days it should be enough as well. Metternich out or with other objectives may also be sufficient. And of course any of the monarchs could have a new spleen about Alsace...