Alsace-Lorraine and France

In 1870 a small group in the Reichstag, centred around Bebel and the socialists argued against the Franco-Prussian War, and (more pertinently) against the annexation of Alsace-Lorraine and then for the return of Alsace-Lorraine to France, arguing that it could only provoke French revanchism. Is it at all possible without war for their viewpoint to gain support and result in Alsace-Lorraine being returned/not annexed. What effects does this have on history? Do the French ally with the Germans against the Austrians, the Russians or the British, or do Germany go to war with France again in order to defeat them more comprehensively and take Alsace Lorraine and the low countries? Is (a) First World War avoided completely?
 

Germaniac

Donor
Fine, first of all this would never happen. Unless Bismark dies and leaves Germany in the hands of a complete imbecile. The annexation of Alsace-Lorraine was only conceived because Bismark wanted to be sure the Rhine was not the Border of Germany, not out of his desire to bring the ethnic germans into the fold. He was not leaving the war without a region on the opposite side of the rhine.

There is no way in hell the Victorious Germans would Ally themselves with the French. The virulent hatred for the french by the germans, and like wise for the french torwards germans, would not have given any room. Wilhelm was know to strongly dislike the French, and After the Franco-Prussian War the french military would be a nonfactor for years.

Post hungarian compromise austria was begginging to enjoy improveed relations with the new german empire. Why would they decide to fight. The Three Emperors league garunteed much more securtiy then a german-french alliance would.

You cannot compare post ww2 germany with pre-1900 germany, its rediculus. Alot happened in 45 years in case you didnt realize that.
 
Bismarck did not want Alsace-Lorraine, it was the Prussian ruling class (King + military leadership) that overruled him.

Bismarck rightly predicted French revanchism in the case of annexation. Faced with annexation he tried to mitigate the French threat by allying with Russia (the Three Emperors League + Reinsurance Pact). This prevented the two front war that was such a nightmare of Moltke et al.
 
Fine, first of all this would never happen. Unless Bismark dies and leaves Germany in the hands of a complete imbecile. The annexation of Alsace-Lorraine was only conceived because Bismark wanted to be sure the Rhine was not the Border of Germany, not out of his desire to bring the ethnic germans into the fold. He was not leaving the war without a region on the opposite side of the rhine.

Speaking of "rediculus", Germany already did have territory on the left bank of the Rhine. You know...the Rhineland?
 
Speaking of "rediculus", Germany already did have territory on the left bank of the Rhine. You know...the Rhineland?

Not in the southern part, it didn't.

What I wonder is if Bismarck took Alsace, but not the part of Lorraine that fell into German hands, if that would change anything at all. Alsace is much more 'German' than Lorraine.

In the case of Bismarck not making any annexations, though, I don't think it would lead to a Franco-German alliance, or even friendliness, but it would probably take some of the edge off of French hard feelings. I've always felt that Germany's mistake was not in allying itself with either Britain or Russia, both of which could offer significant advantages to Germany.
 

Typo

Banned
As mentioned, Bismarck did not want A-L, Bismarck got what he wanted, which was a Prussian dominated German Empire.

Without an annexation of A-L, Franco-German relationship might be ok after a generation, the Austrians certainly had no problem allying with Germany after losing in 1866. There was no great hatred between the Prussians and the French before 1871, if there was, the French would have came on the side of the Austrians in 1866, but Napoleon III thought of Prussia as a balance against Austria.

Another interesting choice would be to make A-L an independent state. Which would acutally eliminate a Franco-German Border completely.
 
Hmm ? Aren't they still allied for the past half century right now?

Only after Germany was completely destroyed in a total war and its citizens cracked by propaganda and the knowledge of the Nazi atrocities. After that, and a decade of Allied occupation, they "found their role" in Europe as a French ally/subject (Who's the EU's largest net payer? Hint, hint... it's a big economy, and it's not France). Adenauer openly conspired with the French to set up an independent Rhineland state before he was elected Chancellor.

For a Franco-German alliance, you need the French defeat to be about as crushing as 1940 at least, and the German government about as ruthless as Hitler ("Nice-guy" Western Europe version) or de Gaulle. In effect, they must be made a puppet, not an independent ally.
 
Fine, first of all this would never happen. Unless Bismark dies and leaves Germany in the hands of a complete imbecile. The annexation of Alsace-Lorraine was only conceived because Bismark wanted to be sure the Rhine was not the Border of Germany, not out of his desire to bring the ethnic germans into the fold. He was not leaving the war without a region on the opposite side of the rhine.

There is no way in hell the Victorious Germans would Ally themselves with the French. The virulent hatred for the french by the germans, and like wise for the french torwards germans, would not have given any room. Wilhelm was know to strongly dislike the French, and After the Franco-Prussian War the french military would be a nonfactor for years.

Post hungarian compromise austria was begginging to enjoy improveed relations with the new german empire. Why would they decide to fight. The Three Emperors league garunteed much more securtiy then a german-french alliance would.

You cannot compare post ww2 germany with pre-1900 germany, its rediculus. Alot happened in 45 years in case you didnt realize that.

As has been noted, Bismarck was against major annexations, since he knew they'd stir up anti-German sentiments (same deal as with Austria-Hungary). He would later go to great lengths to reconcile with the French, offering alliance and recognition of their colonies etc. However, among German nationalists, not redeeming Elsass-Lothringen from French overlordship was intolerable, so that was what he had to work with. Even so, he tried to moderate the demands (didn't claim Briey, for example).
 
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