Alright, I'm rebooting a timeline. Help needed. Badly

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=119403&page=2
There it is. A kinda failed attempt at a collaborative TL, but I liked the concept. I've got time, oodles of time, so I'm restarting and going in the same basic direction as we went, but better planned and more realistic. This means more group discussion to boot.
Here's the basic timeline:

-Britain loses American colonies in French and Indian War.
-French government forces the French language and Roman Catholicism onto the British colonists, along with huge taxes, making them rebel. The revolution is successful with British aide, taking everything east of the Appalachian mountains and south of the St. Lawrence River into the Free American State.
-America bans all immigration except from Britain, Scandinavia, the Netherlands, and North Germany (the non-Catholic states). French immigration is banned, along with Italy and Iberia, deemed too much like the French, and all Catholics too. We get a racist and expansionist America.
-Republican revolution in Britain, sending the monarchy to America. Civil wars in the Netherlands and HRE also send significant amounts of Dutch and German refugees to America.
-We get Napoleon-type dude in Britain also expansionist, and friendly Dutch and Prussian governments. They all create an alliance against France, Russia, Spain, and Austria.
-Napoleonic War equivalent time. Britain takes on the French and Spanish in the Carribean (from Jamaica), America in North America, Dutch and Germans in Europe.
-America and alliance win. Britain takes the Yucatan, Argentina, the Guyanas, OTL Haiti and Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico and and Lousiana territory south of the 36*30 parallel.
-America takes Florida, Cuba (taken by America in naval battle toward end of war) all of OTL eastern Canada except for OTL Quebec (too many French for the Americans) and basically the rest of the continent above the 36*30 parallel.
-European border changes are up to you guys.

After this, pretty much everything is up in the air. So, how can we make this happen? Who wants to help?
 
I'll just wait for a bit, and if no one offers by the end of tomorrow, I guess I'll start by myself...
 
I'd help...if I knew what to do.
If you have the basic timeline there, what do you want us to do? Suggestions for what happens after perhaps?

Jim
 
With such a PoD, some of it looks feasible. But republican revolution in Britain? Is this a concequence of losing the war or is it something different? How does it happen?

Jim
 
Interesting POD, one thats underused in my view.

But would the French do this so explicitly? Perhaps its measures more subtle than this.

I think this is just about plausible; question though. Is America an independent republic or has it rejoined Britain?

Where does this British Napoleon expand into? My suggestion for such a figure would be a Radical officer- Thomas Cochrane nearly fits the bill, but he's in the navy...


Bit ambitious for us, but ok...

TL methinks would be good, just needs some points ironed out...:)
Okay, thanks!
 
Basically like a reverse-Napoleon scenario.

Ok, I get it. If I were this newly installed Britnapoleon I would invade America- hard- to root out the king and retrieve the colony. Then I would try and snatch some colonies like someone mentioned before, and have a short peace to regroup and reform the country(peace of 1803). Then of course I turn on France *evil grin*...

Jim
 
Hate to spoil the atmosphere, but I find the whole "British revolution" thing hard to justify without a good cause. And I don't consider losing the French and Indian wars a good enough cause. That would cause the Parliament to fall, hard, and the British population would lose a lot of faith in the military. I don't see where the potential for a coup d'etat is. Certainly I don't see why the monarch would be overthrown. If anything, the monarchy would come off better, with everyone blaming the ruling Parliamentary party for the problem, and they'd be looking for the King to ensure the appointment of a more competant ministry. If the military got restless over their loss and the bad press, they'd turn on the government too, but only with disgruntlement. Virtually the entirety (5% is the figure I've seen for gentry officers to promoted-from-the-ranks men) of the officer base was of the landed classes, far too steeped in Parliamentary supremacy and maintaining the existing social orders to even consider turning their guns on the government. The rank and file were considerably lower in stock but without their leaders, who point blank would not join a revolution, they would be rudderless and likely would be massacred by an organised militia resistance if they attempted anything. However, I find it still incredibly unlikely that this would happen. Really, the standing government would be turned into scapegoats and forced into political axile. That would be the extent of any revolution.

Seriously, it takes a really huge event to make the British overthrow their government. Remember that, even though the country was somewhat rocked, when the entirety of Europe was up in arms during the Revolutions of 1848, the UK suffered no uprisings at all...the Parliamentary system essentially served to give the British the idea of control over their own affairs (i.e. democracy over autocracy) which dissuaged thoughts of revolution.

Still, if you're designing a TL specifically around a British Napoleon character, that wouldn't necessarily stop you from doing it. It's just an encouragement to find a good way to explain the reasonings. I suggest if you are dead set on the idea that you engineer some kind of political scandal whereby the parliament and monarchy are both adjudged to have betrayed the army, leading to mass resignations from the officers and any angry storming of Westminster which could provide the stage for a loose cannon such as Cochrane to rise to the fore. Or something like that. It would need to be a big crisis though :eek:
 
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=119403&page=2
There it is. A kinda failed attempt at a collaborative TL, but I liked the concept. I've got time, oodles of time, so I'm restarting and going in the same basic direction as we went, but better planned and more realistic. This means more group discussion to boot.
Here's the basic timeline:

Good effort, and I'll help you as much as I can.

-Britain loses American colonies in French and Indian War.
-French government forces the French language and Roman Catholicism onto the British colonists, along with huge taxes, making them rebel. The revolution is successful with British aide, taking everything east of the Appalachian mountains and south of the St. Lawrence River into the Free American State.

Halfway plausible with a minor handwave, and a very interesting concept.

-America bans all immigration except from Britain, Scandinavia, the Netherlands, and North Germany (the non-Catholic states). French immigration is banned, along with Italy and Iberia, deemed too much like the French, and all Catholics too. We get a racist and expansionist America.

Why and how? I think this could work, but might need a bit more consideration.

-Republican revolution in Britain, sending the monarchy to America. Civil wars in the Netherlands and HRE also send significant amounts of Dutch and German refugees to America.

Why on Earth would Britain have a Republican revolution? I could swallow it if it were well-justified enough, but this is a very aggressive handwave.

-We get Napoleon-type dude in Britain also expansionist, and friendly Dutch and Prussian governments. They all create an alliance against France, Russia, Spain, and Austria.

Acceptable if you can make me believe your previous thesis.

-Napoleonic War equivalent time. Britain takes on the French and Spanish in the Carribean (from Jamaica), America in North America, Dutch and Germans in Europe.

-America and alliance win. Britain takes the Yucatan, Argentina, the Guyanas, OTL Haiti and Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico and and Lousiana territory south of the 36*30 parallel.-America takes Florida, Cuba (taken by America in naval battle toward end of war) all of OTL eastern Canada except for OTL Quebec (too many French for the Americans) and basically the rest of the continent above the 36*30 parallel.
-European border changes are up to you guys.

After this, pretty much everything is up in the air. So, how can we make this happen? Who wants to help?

If you make be believe the other quoted bits, I might believe all this.
 
Oh, and another issue: France, Austria and Russia (Spain is neither here nor there) will absolutely walk over the UK, Netherlands and Prussia. They can simply levy too many troops. The British alliance will be swamped, even if man for man they are better.
 
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Why and how? I think this could work, but might need a bit more consideration.

They are really, really mad at the French for forcing Catholicism on them, along with their language, so it's part of the backlash. Remember, most American colonists at this time were anti-Catholic in OTL, so this can't be much of a stretch.

Why on Earth would Britain have a Republican revolution? I could swallow it if it were well-justified enough, but this is a very aggressive handwave.

Same events leading up to the French revolution in OTL apply here.



Acceptable if you can make me believe your previous thesis.



If you make be believe the other quoted bits, I might believe all this.
Then we should be good, right?:D
 
Oh, and another issue: France, Austria and Russia (Spain is neither here nor there) will absolutely walk over the UK, Netherlands and Prussia. They can simply levy too many troops. The British alliance will be swamped, even if man for man they are better.
Okay, who else could we throw in on the alliance on our side? Would, say, Denmark, Sweden, and the Ottomon Empire make a difference?
 
I don't think you can put the events that lead to the French Revolution over Britain, it's more complicated than that, and came from more than France losing the Seven Years War. Throughout the entire 17th century Louis XIV had fought costly wars and left France bankrupt (I believe it actually declared bankruptcy in the 1720s when the South Sea Bubble Burst), Fleury revived things under the reign of Louis XV, but the Seven Years War, as well as the American War of Independence ruined France even more. On top of that, France suffered many poor harvests in the 1780s, and the tax system was horrible antiquated (only the lower and middle classes paid taxes, the aristocracy and clergy being exempt), which certainly didn't help things.

Losing America would be a dent to Britain, but not very much... there wasn't a problem in OTL, I think they actually made more money simply trading with the United States than when they had been the 13 colonies. Plus, looking at the map on the other topic, Britain still has India, the jewel in the crown, even if it's under the rule of the EIC.

As for an alliance, wouldn't Revolutionary Britain be like France, and at first have all of the Great Powers wanting it's throat, if only to restore the Hannoverians and get rid of that awful government? Even Napoleon didn't have many allies for long, and if they were, they were sattalites. A Revolutionary Britain would be far different than a Revolutionary France, because it is a naval power. Thus I think it makes since that our Napoleon comes from the navy; if Britain still rules the seas, she would be able to cause all kinds of trouble, and probably want to sieze the colonies of hostile powers to increase their own wealth?
 
I agree with the idea that you can't put the same conditions of the French Revolution to a British Revolution, but I'm unsure how you could do it.

Maybe one of the reasons that Britain loses the Seven Year war is an early onset of George's madness, so he interferes more in the decision making process? Add in a (really bad) scandal about Parliament and you might have enough anger to get some riots. Could the riots get out of control and lead to an accidental revolution?

Like I said, I'm no expert on this period, but I'll help you where I can.
 
Okay, who else could we throw in on the alliance on our side? Would, say, Denmark, Sweden, and the Ottomon Empire make a difference?

Sweden was already in the Austrian camp during the seven years war. The only way Prussia and Britain can win here is if the same thing that happened in otl occurred here.
 
Main POD for this (there are others, but this is the most important) is that William Pitt dies in an accident.

That's what Thande suggested for his "American Boers" concept, although you might need something a bit more radical to get the loss of the entire Eastern Seaboard.
 
One issue that might have to be dealt with is the Royal Navy. Although it was more progressive than the Army, the Captains and the officers were hardly a radical sort- they might sail en masse to America, and leave England open to invasion from the continent.

That could be how their force a revolution on Britain--abandon the country to French or whoever invading if their demands aren't met.
 
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