Alpenfestung, Walküre and the German Hiroshima

Anchises

Banned
Well I was thinking about different German centered TLs and the cliche stuff always focuses on Germany being able to fullfill its imperial ambitions, either in WW1 or WW2.

(Don't get me wrong, there are some very well done TLs and some stuff that doesn't fall into this category.)

In this thread I would like to talk about how different endings to WW2 could have shaped post-war Germany.
 
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Anchises

Banned
a) Alpenfestung

As a German I am a little bit salty that Austria often escapes their part of the blame for WW1 and WW2 (don't get me started on A-H's war crimes, A-H nostalgy my ass). The whole "First Victim of Fascism" narrative that Austria constructed after the war, allowed them to retreat into comfortable neutrality. They avoided painful division and (rightful) blame for the horrible crimes.

How would the world view Austria if some form of Alpenfestung is actually implemented?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_Fortress

SS, Wehrmacht and NSDAP actually use considerabale ressources to turn Bavarian and Austrian regions into a last redoubt. Austria is remembered as a fanatical Nazi holdout and one of the few places were Werwolf activity actually happens.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf

My guess:

Basically the whole we weren't actually Nazis shtick doesn't really work. Austria is seen as German and responsible for WW2, instead of being a victim of Germany. Austria is probably divided between East and West and Eastern Austria joins the GDR while Western Austria joins the FRG. I don't think we would see the separate modern Austrian identity of OTL.

Interesting ramifications for the Cold War. France, Britain and Russia are going to be really nervous about a reunited Großdeutschland....

b) German Hiroshima

Germany resists longer and the Ruhrgebiet gets a healthy dose of instant sunshine.

My guess: Germany is going to be even more pacifist than IOTL. Maybe Germany isn't willing to join NATO and actively avoids the "Westbindung" of OTL in favour of true neutrality.

c) Operation Valkyrie actually happens. The West immediately accepts a white peace, Germany throws all forces East, the oppressed peoples of the SU are liberated and Rommel is German President in 1950...

No,I am kidding. Hitler dies and Valkyrie at least partly succeds. Obviously it is far to late for anything but unconditional surrender at this point.

This scenario is a little different because there are several ways how a successful Valkyre could actually unfold..

my guess:

The really interesting consequences here are:

1) Possible earlier ending of the Holocaust. Massive butterflies for Israel.

2) Possibly a smaller Eastern Block. Battle of the bulge is not happening. Instead everything is thrown against the Soviets. The W-Allies are probably able to advance much further, while the Soviets are in for a bloody slog.

3) Prussian militarism enjoys more legitimacy than IOTL. This could potentially cause massive butterflies for the post-war German political right. The implications are far reaching. People like Stauffenberg weren't democrats and had fairly extreme views in a lot of regards.

Maybe Operation Valkyrie has some very toxic effects on post-war Germany. There is at least the possibility of a second Dolchstoßlegende.
 
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The most obvious alternate ending in Germany in WW2 would be General Patton getting all the fuel he needs and manages to push through and enters Berlin early in 1945. Whether or not that would end the war would remain to be seen. What happens then? Dunno. Don't think about stuff too hard that never happened. Patton's march to Berlin could also have just set up war between the Soviet Union and the Allies. Who knows? Post war Germany could have been just one country. Or .... just one nation but under the Soviet Union's control.
 
he most obvious alternate ending in Germany in WW2 would be General Patton getting all the fuel he needs and manages to push through and enters Berlin early in 1945

Part of 3rd Army, the 83rd ID, 'Thunderbolt' Division became known as the Rag-Tag Circus from taking every German vehicle(they had everything from Motorcycles to Fire Engines to a King Tiger and even a ME-109 Fighter) they could source so nobody would walk when they got orders on March 29 to head to Berlin ASAP.

By April 13, they had crossed four Rivers, and gone 215 miles before being ordered to hold on the Elbe, and not one inch closer to Berlin, 40 miles away, with the roads open
 
b) German Hiroshima

Germany resists longer and the Ruhrgebiet gets a healthy dose of instant sunshine.

My guess: Germany is going to be even more pacifist than IOTL. Maybe Germany isn't willing to join NATO and actively avoids the "Westbindung" of OTL in favour of true neutrality.
I remember discussing that one a couple months ago. I argued that Westbindung still happens because Adenauer is still being Adenauer and there's no reason for why he wouldn't get into power in the first place. However, Westbindung is going to piss a lot of people off and I strongly doubt that he can unify the German Right under the CDU banner like he did IOTL; the resulting political order is way less stable than OTL, somewhat reminiscent of the French 4th republic. You'd have possibilities like alt-GB/BHE staying relevant for longer thanks to the "Hibakusha vote", alt-GVP actually amounting to something, or Kampf dem Atomtod calling for general strike.
 
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before being ordered to hold on the Elbe, and not one inch closer to Berlin, 40 miles away, with the roads open
Bridges were blown and they used up all their bridging equipment, so they would need to get the pontoons from the army reserve, which would take time. They managed to send some troops across the Elbe in boats (two companies) for ''reconissance in force'' but were pushed back by units of the 12th Army which, when it became obvious Americans won't try again, turned east to attack towards Potsdam.
 

Anchises

Banned
I remember discussing that one a couple months ago. I argued that Westbindung still happens because Adenauer is still being Adenauer and there's no reason for why he wouldn't get into power in the first place; however, Westbindung is going to piss a lot of people off and I strongly doubt that he can unify the German Right under the CDU banner like he did IOTL. You'd have possibilities like alt-GB/BHE staying relevant for longer thanks to the "Hibakusha vote", alt-GVP actually amounting to something, or Kampf dem Atomtod calling for general strike. All of those result in a way less stable political order somewhat reminiscent of post-WW2 France.

Agreed. Wiederaufrüstung is going to be absolutely bonkers and don't get me started on the NATO Doppelbeschluss...

I would agree about the alt-GB/BHE and alt-GVP.

Stuff is bound to get weird once people mostly accept that the Ostgebiete are lost (OTL around mid 60s iirc). I could some weird Querfront stuff with a deeply pacifistic GVP and a right wing GB. I could imagine that the GB eventually gravitates towards a "third way" foreign policy position, where the FRG is supposed to be between East and West.

This "third way" would be aiming at rebuilding Germany as a neutral Great Power. The Soviets are appeased because Germany leaves NATO, possibly allowing Reunification and making a killing by trading with both blocks. Probably something that Gauland would have liked during the Cold War.
 
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