Allies Can't Break Axis Codes in WWII

jahenders

Banned
Suppose that the allies have no luck at breaking Axis encryption in WWII -- either the German Enigma machines and Japanese Purple & Naval codes are tougher, the Axis changes keys far more frequently, and/or the Allies don't have as much help or focus on it.

In any case, the Allies don't break any significant Axis messages throughout the war (or do so at a much lower rate than the Axis does). Please discuss the impact on the course of the war.
 
Battle of Atlantic goes a little better, Midway goes better (but does not really affect long term Japanese planning), Kursk goes better for Axis maybe (it was still an obvious place for the USSR to defend)...however, the Axis lost mostly because of huge demographic and economic disadvantages. The war might end at a nearly identical time, the Allies were able to easily replace losses. Maybe two months tops.
 
You have to completely change the German/Japanese views on the unbreakability of their codes, which more-or-less means changing their whole national characters.
 

jahenders

Banned
I don't think so. As far as Enigma, if its inventors had decided to use more wheels or more characters per wheel, it would be much harder to break. Alternately, if its usage was stricter, the allies would have gotten far less "tips" to help solve a code set, taking longer and (often) meaning it wasn't broken before it was replaced.

The Japanese system was similar and a minor change could have made it considerably more secure.

The Japanese knew their code was likely compromised before the war, so they changed to a new machine. Likewise, the Germans suspected that their codes were vulnerable so they added another wheel. Those things didn't require a huge change in national character.

You have to completely change the German/Japanese views on the unbreakability of their codes, which more-or-less means changing their whole national characters.
 
This isn't just one change though, you have to keep changing things, because the allies will eventually figure it out. A Germany that is worried about their codes basically needs a Germany that is less arrogant and more careful overall, the same for Japan.
 
The Battle of the Atlantic was a war of attrition: could the WAllies ship stuff faster than U-boats could sink it?
With Enigma intact, U-boats would have done far greater damage to North Atlantic convoys, definitely slowing the flow of Lend-Lease materials to Russia, maybe even starving Britain into surrender.
 
Suppose that the allies have no luck at breaking Axis encryption in WWII -- either the German Enigma machines and Japanese Purple & Naval codes are tougher, the Axis changes keys far more frequently, and/or the Allies don't have as much help or focus on it.

In any case, the Allies don't break any significant Axis messages throughout the war (or do so at a much lower rate than the Axis does). Please discuss the impact on the course of the war.

Up to 66% Of Wallies intel was air photo recon derived

So what ever % Encryption / Radio intercepts / Direction finding / etc has been lost is taken from that remaining 33% or so

I guess this would impact the Battle of the Atlantic in some fashion

But basically hand waiving away years of de-encryption and the advent of early computers is not going to suddenly give the 'baddies' an insurmountable advantage on its own.
 
The Battle of the Atlantic was a war of attrition: could the Western Allies ship stuff faster than U-boats could sink it? With Enigma intact, U-boats would have done far greater damage to North Atlantic convoys, definitely slowing the flow of Lend-Lease materials to Russia, maybe even starving Britain into surrender.
Enigma being unbroken wouldn't have been all that damaging for the Allies during the Battle of the Atlantic, whilst the decodes were useful they would still be able to track the encoded transmissions via high-frequency direction finding also known as huff-duff. So they potentially run into a few more submarines but it certainly won't be a massacre or enough to tip things in the Germans favour IIRC.
 
In some cases this might benefit the Allies. Operation Morning Air, in Tunisia in early 1943 suprised both the US II Corps and the Brit 1st Army due to a over focus on ULTRA decrypts. Ditto for information on German deployments in Italy in September 1943. That made operation Avalanche more difficult than it should have been, and nearly flew the US 82d Airborne Div into a massacre. In December 1944 the G2 of the US 1st Army was overly dependant on ULTRA & paid poor attention to intel gathered from the front lines.

Without the Enigma decrypts the Allies must pay more attention to other intel sources and develop them better.

Perhaps the most important loss is the ability to look inside the German command and get a idea of its thinking. This was particulary important for the deception operations. Without ULTRA the Allies have a vastly more difficult time evaluating the success of their deception ops.
 
Suppose that the allies have no luck at breaking Axis encryption in WWII -- either the German Enigma machines and Japanese Purple & Naval codes are tougher, the Axis changes keys far more frequently, and/or the Allies don't have as much help or focus on it.

In any case, the Allies don't break any significant Axis messages throughout the war (or do so at a much lower rate than the Axis does). Please discuss the impact on the course of the war.

The absence of ULTRA intelligence is huge for the European war.

ULTRA was significant for the battle of Britain. While the Luftwaffe was never going to achieve the air supremacy required for that operation, the BoB could have been much more costly for the RAF.

ULTRA was significant for the Blitz. In the "Battle of the Beams", R. V. Jones correlated the numbers in certain otherwise meaningless Luftwaffe messages with the directions and settings of German radio-guidance beams. IIRC, this was what allowed him to prove that the Germans were using radio-guidance.

ULTRA was colossal for the Battle of the Atlantic. U-boat attacks were devastating in the first half of 1941, until the British broke the German main naval key, HYDRA. Then losses to U-boats dropped by 2/3 immediately, and remained low until February 1942, when the Germans adopted a new, unbroken key for U-boats (TRITON). Losses jumped back to that high level. The Allies "stayed in the game" through 1942 in part because of Enigma they were still reading. HYDRA alerted them to surface navy operations escorting U-boats going on patrol or returning. TETIS was the key of the U-boat training command, which gave the Allies news of U-boats coming into service and deploying to the Atlantic bases.

TRITON was broken in November 1942, and the slaughter was checked. But when the Germans tweaked TRITON in March 1943 and it went dark for three weeks, the losses again spiked.

In middle 1943, the Allies deployed escort carriers, VLR aircraft, and airborne search radar, and broke the U-boats. But even with these technical advantages, ULTRA was still very useful for maneuvering convoys around U-boat patrol lines, and for hunting U-boats in transit to and from the bases in France.

ULTRA was important to the Double-Cross System. The British read lots of traffic between the Abwehr in Germany and its outstations in Spain. Many important XX agents reported to controllers in Spain. ULTRA allowed the British to see exactly how the Germans were reacting to what the British were feeding them.

ULTRA mattered a lot in the North African theater. It gave the Allies the strength and status of Axis forces on a running basis; it enabled Allied air and naval forces to destroy a substantial proportion of Axis supply to Africa.

Many of the results achieved from ULTRA could have been achieved by other means, but later, and at greater cost.

The most obvious damage is in the Battle of the Atlantic: the Allies would lose about 6M to 8M additional tons of shipping, and would have build many additional escorts instead of landing craft, possibly delaying D-Day by months or even a year.

The loss of ships and supplies would handicap Allied operations in the Middle East in 1941 and 1942. This combines with better supply for the Axis forces in North Africa. Would the Axis have been able to conquer Egypt? If Eighth Army is 20% weaker, and Panzer Armee Afrika is 20% stronger... At the very least, the final Allied drive west from Egypt may be delayed by several months.

Perhaps the most important benefit of ULTRA for the Allies was that it gave them continual, reliable information about the strength, deployment, and status of German forces. This information rarely had clear tactical or operational results (on land), but it meant the Alllies could operate with vastly greater confidence. In a few cases, overconfidence (as in the Battle of the Bulge), but I think those few cases are far more than offset by the continual advantages of the rest of the time. Would Eighth Army have pressed the attack at Second El Alamein after the initial drive stalled if they had not known what PAA's strength was? Would SHAEF have been as ready to turn loose U.S. First and Third Armies in July 1944 if they had not been certain there were no unknown large German reserves?

These are merely examples: those particular battles would not take place. But there could be similar battles, and the Allies would face similar challenges.

As to the Pacific: at least one major U.S. tactical success was due to codebreaking: the battle of Midway. Without the decrypts (and the analysis of them, possible only because of previous decrypts), the U.S. would not have anticipated the Japanese attack. They would not have reinforced Midway, they would not have rushed the repair of Yorktown, and they would not have had the carriers lying in wait. The result would likely be a Japanese victory, and the Pacific War would be longer; except of course it ends when the Bomb goes off.
 
The impact is very heavy, especially in the first years of the war. Sure, eventually the Allies will work out other solutions, and will simply use their technological and industrial margin. They will build more Liberty ships, they will, in the end, still build the nukes. But that's, as I said, eventually. It means a longer war, for sure, and more than that: it remains to be seen if all the Allies can really make it to that "eventually".
 
It is highly, highly unlikely that EITHER side doesn't manage to break ANY of the other guy's codes. The Germans had several Allied codes broken, for instance.

It's true that Enigma was rather more difficult. But. 1) radio direction finding, 2) German sloppiness with their codes, etc., means that this is less of a disaster than it first seems.

Sure, it's a disaster, and there would be large increases in Atlantic shipping lost, for instance, and the Japanese would do better at Midway, say. But, all of this only mildly extends the war. IMO.
 

jahenders

Banned
Great summary. Along the lines of what I was thinking, but better researched and stated.

Thank you.

The absence of ULTRA intelligence is huge for the European war.

ULTRA was significant for the battle of Britain. While the Luftwaffe was never going to achieve the air supremacy required for that operation, the BoB could have been much more costly for the RAF.

ULTRA was significant for the Blitz. In the "Battle of the Beams", R. V. Jones correlated the numbers in certain otherwise meaningless Luftwaffe messages with the directions and settings of German radio-guidance beams. IIRC, this was what allowed him to prove that the Germans were using radio-guidance.

ULTRA was colossal for the Battle of the Atlantic. U-boat attacks were devastating in the first half of 1941, until the British broke the German main naval key, HYDRA. Then losses to U-boats dropped by 2/3 immediately, and remained low until February 1942, when the Germans adopted a new, unbroken key for U-boats (TRITON). Losses jumped back to that high level. The Allies "stayed in the game" through 1942 in part because of Enigma they were still reading. HYDRA alerted them to surface navy operations escorting U-boats going on patrol or returning. TETIS was the key of the U-boat training command, which gave the Allies news of U-boats coming into service and deploying to the Atlantic bases.

TRITON was broken in November 1942, and the slaughter was checked. But when the Germans tweaked TRITON in March 1943 and it went dark for three weeks, the losses again spiked.

In middle 1943, the Allies deployed escort carriers, VLR aircraft, and airborne search radar, and broke the U-boats. But even with these technical advantages, ULTRA was still very useful for maneuvering convoys around U-boat patrol lines, and for hunting U-boats in transit to and from the bases in France.

ULTRA was important to the Double-Cross System. The British read lots of traffic between the Abwehr in Germany and its outstations in Spain. Many important XX agents reported to controllers in Spain. ULTRA allowed the British to see exactly how the Germans were reacting to what the British were feeding them.

ULTRA mattered a lot in the North African theater. It gave the Allies the strength and status of Axis forces on a running basis; it enabled Allied air and naval forces to destroy a substantial proportion of Axis supply to Africa.

Many of the results achieved from ULTRA could have been achieved by other means, but later, and at greater cost.

The most obvious damage is in the Battle of the Atlantic: the Allies would lose about 6M to 8M additional tons of shipping, and would have build many additional escorts instead of landing craft, possibly delaying D-Day by months or even a year.

The loss of ships and supplies would handicap Allied operations in the Middle East in 1941 and 1942. This combines with better supply for the Axis forces in North Africa. Would the Axis have been able to conquer Egypt? If Eighth Army is 20% weaker, and Panzer Armee Afrika is 20% stronger... At the very least, the final Allied drive west from Egypt may be delayed by several months.

Perhaps the most important benefit of ULTRA for the Allies was that it gave them continual, reliable information about the strength, deployment, and status of German forces. This information rarely had clear tactical or operational results (on land), but it meant the Alllies could operate with vastly greater confidence. In a few cases, overconfidence (as in the Battle of the Bulge), but I think those few cases are far more than offset by the continual advantages of the rest of the time. Would Eighth Army have pressed the attack at Second El Alamein after the initial drive stalled if they had not known what PAA's strength was? Would SHAEF have been as ready to turn loose U.S. First and Third Armies in July 1944 if they had not been certain there were no unknown large German reserves?

These are merely examples: those particular battles would not take place. But there could be similar battles, and the Allies would face similar challenges.

As to the Pacific: at least one major U.S. tactical success was due to codebreaking: the battle of Midway. Without the decrypts (and the analysis of them, possible only because of previous decrypts), the U.S. would not have anticipated the Japanese attack. They would not have reinforced Midway, they would not have rushed the repair of Yorktown, and they would not have had the carriers lying in wait. The result would likely be a Japanese victory, and the Pacific War would be longer; except of course it ends when the Bomb goes off.
 
As to the Pacific: at least one major U.S. tactical success was due to codebreaking: the battle of Midway. Without the decrypts (and the analysis of them, possible only because of previous decrypts), the U.S. would not have anticipated the Japanese attack. They would not have reinforced Midway, they would not have rushed the repair of Yorktown, and they would not have had the carriers lying in wait. The result would likely be a Japanese victory, and the Pacific War would be longer; except of course it ends when the Bomb goes off.

I suppose the real question becomes what happens with Midway if America hadn't been ready. The Japanese were hoping to lure the American carriers into the battle and if the Americans had lost all three and the Japanese only one or two, its hard to see American taking the offensive until much later than they did in our timeline. In worst case scenario, I wonder if the Japanese could have forced the United States into a settlement?

--
Bill
 
I suppose the real question becomes what happens with Midway if America hadn't been ready. ..... In worst case scenario, I wonder if the Japanese could have forced the United States into a settlement?

--
Bill

Short answer is no. The US was down to one damaged fleet carrier at the end of 1942 & Japan still had three in good condition, but no one then suggested we ask for a cease fire

The current US war plans, the Rainbow plans, the Victory Plan study, and the old WP Orange and Black which those drew from had a long 18 months defensive phase in the Pacific. It was assumed when those plans were outlined in 1940 and when the Rainbow Plans were completed in mid 1941 that a high portion of the US fleet and new construction would be used in the Atlantic & Mediterranean through 1943. That the US was able to start limited offensive operations in the South Pacific 8-12 months early had to do with the German & Italian maritime power proving much less capable than originally thought.

It was understood as 1941 ran out that the current naval construction program would produce a new fleet in one year that would match Japans modern fleet in size and capability, and nearly triple that in two years.
 
The course of the Pacific War wouldn't be changed that much by not having the Americans break the Japanese codes. The U.S. Navy didn't need to accept the offer for "decisive battle." The most likely outcome is Midway fights off the anemic Japanese invasion task force solo, and the Kido Butai sails around in circles for a few days ready to pounce on an American rescue force that never comes.
 
did they never have a clue from any captured Poles or Polish military documents(if any) since they had early success in breaking German codes?
 
did they never have a clue from any captured Poles or Polish military documents(if any) since they had early success in breaking German codes?

No.

The story is actually quite remarkable.

Back in 1930, Gustave Bertrand of France's Deuxième Bureau suborned a clerk in the cipher department of the Reichswehr. He obtained operating manuals and sample messages and keys which he gave to Poland. These documents enabled the Poles to break Enigma - a success which they shared with France and Britain in summer 1939, though by then German tweaks had blocked the Poles.

When Poland was conquered in 1939, the Polish codebreaking team escaped the blitz by way of Romania and reached France. They were put to work by the Deuxième Bureau under the supervision of Bertrand at "PC BRUNO", and worked in close collaboration with the British team at Bletchley Park.

The Anglo-Franco-Polish effort re-broke Enigma in early 1940. But with the fall of France the Franco-Polish group was on the run again.

Now it gets really weird. Bertrand and the Poles established a new codebreaking center (CADIX) in the unoccupied zone of France, which was supported by the Vichy French government. Really. It's not clear who in the Vichy state knew about this; almost certainly not Pétain, Laval, or Darlan, but Bertrand and his superiors in the 2ème Bureau knew. CADIX communicated with Bletchley Park, and IIRC exposed a German covert-operations group in Marseille which the Vichy French "busted" and sent home.

When the Germans occupied southern France after TORCH, the CADIX staff had to run for it. Several of the staff were arrested by the Germans. Some were held to the end of the war; others were released for want of evidence. None of them revealed anything about the codebreaking.

Some of these men reached Britain; but they were excluded from the key activities of BP.
 
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elkarlo

Banned
You have to completely change the German/Japanese views on the unbreakability of their codes, which more-or-less means changing their whole national characters.

This was def a case of taking stupid pills. Same with the German sea codes in WWI. SMH dumb
 
Short answer is no. The US was down to one damaged fleet carrier at the end of 1942 & Japan still had three in good condition, but no one then suggested we ask for a cease fire

You mean two damaged carriers. Saratoga was being repaired and Enterprise remained fighting. And of course the first of the Essex carriers had already been launched and was about to be commissioned. Finally of course, by September of 1942, the U.S. was no longer on the defensive like it had been just a couple of months before during the Battle of Midway.

The current US war plans, the Rainbow plans, the Victory Plan study, and the old WP Orange and Black which those drew from had a long 18 months defensive phase in the Pacific. It was assumed when those plans were outlined in 1940 and when the Rainbow Plans were completed in mid 1941 that a high portion of the US fleet and new construction would be used in the Atlantic & Mediterranean through 1943. That the US was able to start limited offensive operations in the South Pacific 8-12 months early had to do with the German & Italian maritime power proving much less capable than originally thought.

This is true, but how bad could the U.S. get mauled before public opinion started turning against this strategy. Particularly if the Japanese were trying to offer reasonable terms to end the war.

It was understood as 1941 ran out that the current naval construction program would produce a new fleet in one year that would match Japans modern fleet in size and capability, and nearly triple that in two years.

Yep, but for that to work out, the U.S. Fleet had to at least keep the Japanese Fleet on some sort of leash. If they had lost badly at Midway, and were down to just Saratoga, I am not sure how possible that would have been.

--
Bill
 
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