Allied WW2 Improvements
- Thread starter Julian
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I guess I missed the bit where I expected the Brits to single-handedly invade and subdue Germany. The bulk of the fighting in this scenario will be done by the Czechs, at least initially. They would have fought if backed up, and it would not have been a walkover for the Germans. Remember that the Germans are still in the process of rearming and reorganising too, they are a lot weaker than they will be in a year or two OTL.
Oh, and no need to be a jerk when you post, it isn't helpful.
The ultimate war winner is for the French government to be prepared to intervene & squlech the Rhineland occupation in 1936. The likely resuilt is Hitler is discredited, losses power soon after, if not imeadiately by a army coup. Germany is then bemused for several years dealing with the after effects of Hilters policies and the remaining nazi party leadership.
The next real opportunity is for the French government of 1938 to tell Chamberlain to stuff it, they intend to make a fight of it, then announce preliminary mobilization (which only involved a few thousand officers and administrative NCO), and issue the warning order for full mobilization. Odds are the German Generals will take action...
After that would be for the French no let the anti Communist attitude of the Chamberlain government dissasuade them from reaching a alliance aggreemnt with the Soviet Union. The Poles may throw a fit, but as the German army arrives in the Warsaw subburbs their opinion will be less relelvant. Having a actively hostile Red Army somewhere east of the Vistula River is a major game changer for Germany in 1939 & 1940. Any sort of decisive attack on France is DoA with the Wehrmacht split between two fronts.
Quite a few other historians reach the same conclusion by one route or another. Horne 'To Lose a Battle'; Chapman 'Why France Fell'; May "Strange Victory'; Doughty 'The Breaking Point' to name just a few. Doughty also in 'Seeds of Disaster' does a in depth analysis of French armored, artillery, infantry development and doctrines.
Amen. If Belgium declares war on Germany in September 1939 The resulting front is far shorter allowing better concentration, and allows better preperation of a Allied defense in depth from the Belgian/German frontier. Also Belgium will have its 22 divisions of 1939 completely mobilized and through a initial round of training, and have another 4-6 new divisions formed/armed/and training. The shorter front would allow France to have fewer soldiers at labor & more training accomplished.
In Asia the Brits and French could take the lead and properly support the Nationalist government when Japan attacks China in 1937. A trade embargo on Japan has a lot greater odds of sucess as Japan did not have any reserves of oil or other stratigic materials set aside. Nor did many leaders in Japan think they could swiftly defeeat a combined Brit/French alliance. If the US were to send a few secret diplomatic notes to Japan supporting the Anglo/French alliance and schedule a fleet exercise (war preperations) then the pressure on Japan would be enormous. If the imperialists leaders remain in power Japan will collapse economically in a few months.
Actually the USN plans were not to rush out to meet anyone. The US 1930s war games testing War Plan Orange had been fairly realistic and the US admirals had a reasonable understanding of what their three carriers and aging battleship fleet might accomplsh against the Japanese. Kimmels plan were the Japanese to approach Oahu in strength was to move the battle fleet east of Hawaii & let the the 400+ Army & Navy aircraft remaining on Oahu squabble with them. The US fleet would stalk the Japanese but strike only if the situation warranted. It was understood the Japanese would have limited fuel and no way to resupply ammo without returning to Truk or Japan. Worst case the US would lose a couple hundred aircraft based on Oahu and perhaps that many air crew.
The ultimate action might be to avoid the worst effects of the Versailles treaty altogether, tho that is quite unrealistc given the politics of 1919. A somewhat more likely change might occur in 1924.
After the politically disaster of French/Belgian occupation of the Rhineland in 1923 The entire 'German Policy' might be changed. Were Britain, Belgium France, and the US to negotiate away the Versailles Treaty with Germany & Austria much of he basis for WWII in Europe would be removed. The moderate partys in power in Germany would gain enormous political prestige, Europes economy receive a boost from the rationalization of the dying reparations system, currency stablilization and a improved banking structure. While the depression of the 1930s might not be avoided it would be less deep & shorter. Odds are with a better economic situation, the Versailles Treaty dismantled, and a larger German army allowed the nazis would remain a minor footnote in 20th Century history
The next real opportunity is for the French government of 1938 to tell Chamberlain to stuff it, they intend to make a fight of it, then announce preliminary mobilization (which only involved a few thousand officers and administrative NCO), and issue the warning order for full mobilization. Odds are the German Generals will take action...
After that would be for the French no let the anti Communist attitude of the Chamberlain government dissasuade them from reaching a alliance aggreemnt with the Soviet Union. The Poles may throw a fit, but as the German army arrives in the Warsaw subburbs their opinion will be less relelvant. Having a actively hostile Red Army somewhere east of the Vistula River is a major game changer for Germany in 1939 & 1940. Any sort of decisive attack on France is DoA with the Wehrmacht split between two fronts.
Quite a few other historians reach the same conclusion by one route or another. Horne 'To Lose a Battle'; Chapman 'Why France Fell'; May "Strange Victory'; Doughty 'The Breaking Point' to name just a few. Doughty also in 'Seeds of Disaster' does a in depth analysis of French armored, artillery, infantry development and doctrines.
Amen. If Belgium declares war on Germany in September 1939 The resulting front is far shorter allowing better concentration, and allows better preperation of a Allied defense in depth from the Belgian/German frontier. Also Belgium will have its 22 divisions of 1939 completely mobilized and through a initial round of training, and have another 4-6 new divisions formed/armed/and training. The shorter front would allow France to have fewer soldiers at labor & more training accomplished.
In Asia the Brits and French could take the lead and properly support the Nationalist government when Japan attacks China in 1937. A trade embargo on Japan has a lot greater odds of sucess as Japan did not have any reserves of oil or other stratigic materials set aside. Nor did many leaders in Japan think they could swiftly defeeat a combined Brit/French alliance. If the US were to send a few secret diplomatic notes to Japan supporting the Anglo/French alliance and schedule a fleet exercise (war preperations) then the pressure on Japan would be enormous. If the imperialists leaders remain in power Japan will collapse economically in a few months.
Actually the USN plans were not to rush out to meet anyone. The US 1930s war games testing War Plan Orange had been fairly realistic and the US admirals had a reasonable understanding of what their three carriers and aging battleship fleet might accomplsh against the Japanese. Kimmels plan were the Japanese to approach Oahu in strength was to move the battle fleet east of Hawaii & let the the 400+ Army & Navy aircraft remaining on Oahu squabble with them. The US fleet would stalk the Japanese but strike only if the situation warranted. It was understood the Japanese would have limited fuel and no way to resupply ammo without returning to Truk or Japan. Worst case the US would lose a couple hundred aircraft based on Oahu and perhaps that many air crew.
The ultimate action might be to avoid the worst effects of the Versailles treaty altogether, tho that is quite unrealistc given the politics of 1919. A somewhat more likely change might occur in 1924.
After the politically disaster of French/Belgian occupation of the Rhineland in 1923 The entire 'German Policy' might be changed. Were Britain, Belgium France, and the US to negotiate away the Versailles Treaty with Germany & Austria much of he basis for WWII in Europe would be removed. The moderate partys in power in Germany would gain enormous political prestige, Europes economy receive a boost from the rationalization of the dying reparations system, currency stablilization and a improved banking structure. While the depression of the 1930s might not be avoided it would be less deep & shorter. Odds are with a better economic situation, the Versailles Treaty dismantled, and a larger German army allowed the nazis would remain a minor footnote in 20th Century history
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Leigh Mallory being head of Army Co-Operation is an interesting one, from what i've read of him he was one of the few that was actually interested in this.
Whether he would have been any good at it in 1940/41...who knows.
Hoist40
Banned
Calling up the Philippine Army reserves to active duty in September 1940 when the US Army reserves were called up and the US draft approved instead of waiting until after cutting off Japan’s oil in July 1941. This would have given the 10 divisions of the Philippine Army almost a year more to get trained and supplied.
This would also have helped the US Army Philippine division and the only regular army division of the Philippine Army the 1st Division because both units lost lots of officers and NCO’s to the Philippine Reserve divisions and did not have time to replace them.
The Philippines would probably still have been lost to the Japanese but the fight would have been harder.
Also the building fortifications, naval bases and other defenses in the US Pacific islands after the Washington Naval Treaty restrictions ran out in 1936 instead of waiting until 1941 when Midway was just done with initial work, Wake was in the middle of work and Guam did not have any work done.
This would also have helped the US Army Philippine division and the only regular army division of the Philippine Army the 1st Division because both units lost lots of officers and NCO’s to the Philippine Reserve divisions and did not have time to replace them.
The Philippines would probably still have been lost to the Japanese but the fight would have been harder.
Also the building fortifications, naval bases and other defenses in the US Pacific islands after the Washington Naval Treaty restrictions ran out in 1936 instead of waiting until 1941 when Midway was just done with initial work, Wake was in the middle of work and Guam did not have any work done.
A double-bonus since removing him as head of No. 12 Group means possible less political manoeuvring, and thus maybe a shorter and more successful BoB.
Could Park have been shipped out To Malta in early '41, and could it help solve the islands defence problems?
Something else that might have helped was if Britain and/or France had got involved in a major regional war in the 1920's or 30's that went badly for them. I'm thinking something on a scale of the Second Boer War with an equivalent of The Black Week. Britain's shambolic performance in that war resulted in the Haldane Reforms, I've read that without those the British Army could have collapsed in 1914 leading to an early German victory. So something similar happens leading to full scale reviews of doctrine and equipment hopefully resulting in the adoption of the kind of doctrine Fuller and others advocated.
It is difficult to see where and how such a war could have happened given the prevailing pacifist am sentiments of the time, maybe Abyssinia turns into a direct war with Italy or a war against Japan but I find it difficult to construct a plausible scenario.
It is difficult to see where and how such a war could have happened given the prevailing pacifist am sentiments of the time, maybe Abyssinia turns into a direct war with Italy or a war against Japan but I find it difficult to construct a plausible scenario.
Malta needs an expert touch given it's available forces vs. the forces against it, and it could easily come with a promotion or two. Don't think of it as exile, but as a test and ultimately a vindication that he's the best in the commonwealth.I wanted Park to get Dowding's job so he wouldn't get exiled.
Okay I'll bite, what do you consider so objectionable about it?
Well considering the author's background it's hardly surprising that he might concentrate on the technical side of things. Not to say that it's grand literature or anything, I found it entertaining enough for what it was.
Yes, its an excellent read and I mentioned it because its main purpose is the main purpose of this thread - ie someone from the Allied side going back in time to the 1930s sets about doing all the tech improvements, that this very thread is asking questions about.
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Too much looking at detail!
As has been mentioned, keeping Metropolitan France a player is the key all round.
Early intervention in the Rhineland and Czechoslovakia, overt active support of Polish rearmament, active opposition of Italian interventions in Ethiopia and Albania and a real military presence in indo China mean that Germany is dissuaded from military action in Europe, Italy abandons an aggressive foreign policy and Japan cannot reach out to Malaya and see that the Dutch can be supported in the East Indies by Anglo French forces so will have to come to some accommodation with USA over Japanese expansion.
So no need for WW2.
A consequence, if you are a part of the British, French and Dutch Empires, is a slower independence process but it will happen (e.g. it was British policy for India to become an independent Dominion and Indians were taking an increasing role in the armed and civil services).
If you are Chinese, Korean or Taiwanese I suspect a (smaller) Japanese Empire on mainland Asia will be recognised.
How do you keep France alive? An aggressive professional army with modern command and control technology allied to a part time garrison Franco Belgian defensive system.
Do I have doubts?
Given the interwar internal politics, the French professional army would have been seen as right wing internal enforcers and the part timers as armed left wing potential revolutionaries.
The Belgians would fear the French treating them as French not allies.
Britain would fear France becoming over powerful in Europe so traditionally would ally with a limiting force. Possibly Iberia through bases and training in Portugal and a guarentee for Spanish neutrality.
Freed of a fear of Germany, Poland and Sweden could support Finland and the Baltic States more overtly and allow Britain, France and USA to send material support there leading to a Greater Finland with sort of Baltic NATO.
Japan, limited by the accommodation with USA in China and SE Asia, could look to take advantage of Russian weakness in the West to act against Siberia.
For the USA, in the absence of WW2, it would remain in isolation indulging in management and interventions in Central and South America.
More trivially, the USA would see Alaska as a possible threat from Japan in Asian Russia and Canada would see their nearest threat as the same so a shift in both to being able to defend themselves against a Pacific threat.
Italy, being restricted in it's foreign interventions, would look to maximise it's own southern regions and Sicily and bring Libya properly into Metropolitan Italy so bad news for Libyans.
For UK the desire to maintain it's status quo is satisfied.
All in all a very different world today than OTL.
As has been mentioned, keeping Metropolitan France a player is the key all round.
Early intervention in the Rhineland and Czechoslovakia, overt active support of Polish rearmament, active opposition of Italian interventions in Ethiopia and Albania and a real military presence in indo China mean that Germany is dissuaded from military action in Europe, Italy abandons an aggressive foreign policy and Japan cannot reach out to Malaya and see that the Dutch can be supported in the East Indies by Anglo French forces so will have to come to some accommodation with USA over Japanese expansion.
So no need for WW2.
A consequence, if you are a part of the British, French and Dutch Empires, is a slower independence process but it will happen (e.g. it was British policy for India to become an independent Dominion and Indians were taking an increasing role in the armed and civil services).
If you are Chinese, Korean or Taiwanese I suspect a (smaller) Japanese Empire on mainland Asia will be recognised.
How do you keep France alive? An aggressive professional army with modern command and control technology allied to a part time garrison Franco Belgian defensive system.
Do I have doubts?
Given the interwar internal politics, the French professional army would have been seen as right wing internal enforcers and the part timers as armed left wing potential revolutionaries.
The Belgians would fear the French treating them as French not allies.
Britain would fear France becoming over powerful in Europe so traditionally would ally with a limiting force. Possibly Iberia through bases and training in Portugal and a guarentee for Spanish neutrality.
Freed of a fear of Germany, Poland and Sweden could support Finland and the Baltic States more overtly and allow Britain, France and USA to send material support there leading to a Greater Finland with sort of Baltic NATO.
Japan, limited by the accommodation with USA in China and SE Asia, could look to take advantage of Russian weakness in the West to act against Siberia.
For the USA, in the absence of WW2, it would remain in isolation indulging in management and interventions in Central and South America.
More trivially, the USA would see Alaska as a possible threat from Japan in Asian Russia and Canada would see their nearest threat as the same so a shift in both to being able to defend themselves against a Pacific threat.
Italy, being restricted in it's foreign interventions, would look to maximise it's own southern regions and Sicily and bring Libya properly into Metropolitan Italy so bad news for Libyans.
For UK the desire to maintain it's status quo is satisfied.
All in all a very different world today than OTL.
amphibulous
Banned
And why is it up to Chamberlain to decide if the Czech's will fight? And what does the "initially" imply??? **There is no feasible meaningful aid that Chamberlain can give.** Small army, RAF still equipped with biplanes, landlocked country.
The Czechs didn't fight because they were hugely out-gunned by the Germans and had the Poles and Hungarians ready to stab them in the back - not because Chamberlain forced them not to using his Appeasement Mind Control powers.
amphibulous
Banned
Can any of the Intervene In Czechosolvakia crowd find it on a map? It has no coast line. It borders with Germany/Austria, Hungary (which wanted and indeed grabbed Czech territory), Poland (the same) and the USSR. There was no possible mechanism for getting troops - or even aircraft - into Czechoslovakia with the technology of the 30s/40s. Unless the Czechs had been willing to let the Soviets occupy them - which would have been pretty insane in itself.
Flubber
Banned
You're leaving out the other half. The half about the East German academic who is sent back at the same time and gives the Nazis tech improvements too because, in his mind, preventing the Soviet domination of eastern Germany is worth the Holocaust.
The book is a poorly dressed up gun porn/tech wank. The author knows all about his nuts & bolts and nothing at all human beings.
Czechoslovakia got border with Romania, which in case Czechoslovakia got full support of French and British will be more then cooperative. And Romania did have the coast. Also, in case French and British got fully involved, so there is no Munich, Czechoslovak government would not surrender, as suddenly, Germans are one who are badly outgunned.
As to Hungary and partially Poland territorial claims to Czechoslovakia. In case of French/ British involvement in the conflict, Hungary with its understrength and under equipped army will not risk war. You have to take into account that in case of French/ British declaration of support for Czechoslovakia and them actually entering conflict, in case of Hungarian attack against Czechoslovakia, Romania and Yugoslavia will be fully pulled into war against Hungary.
Look what Czechoslovakia had deployed in Slovakia:
Only way for Hungarians to attack is along Danube-Ipel rivers. But lines there were pretty decently fortified and I believe Hungarian army lacked capability to cross heavily defended rivers. Or through area more east into Michalovce area. But even there it was pretty decently fortified. by light fortifications on which Czechoslovak army can put decent fight.
As to strength. Czechoslovak army had 3rd Army in Slovakia, which had VII Corps - 4 border area units with 3 infantry regiments and 2 artillery regiments each (which were actually highly trained border defense divisions) with another extra support units and Corps had extra 1 or two 2 artillery regiments, plus 2 infantry and 1 armored division. Then they had reserve of High Command for Slovakia there, which had 4 infantry division. Plus Slovakia was organized into another Army called Rear Area Army which had parts of V, VI and VII Corps (should serve as a organization for new units, etc and according to Czechoslovak policy every Corps had at least one Artillery regiment for use by Corps Commander. So we got around 10 infantry divisions in Slovakia plus armored Division.
Also, in area around Humenne, training of international volunteers started. Mostly Yugoslavians. Numbers differ (maybe around 4000??)
So Hungarian 350 000 strong army against app. 200 000 Czechslovaks in prepared positions with Romania and Yugoslavia in their back. They would very probably stey neutral and wait what happens.
Yes, agree to - I did offer up a suggestion of him as a RAF Udet awhile ago!! As has been said his expertise was in Army Co-op, maybe send him to France!?
But who else in 12 Group ??
Candidates:
- AVM G B A Baker, A Commodore L L MacLean, AVM A H Orlebar,