Allied Victory in the Battle of France?

Cook

Banned
The big problem with proposals of significant changes is that they change things significantly. If you have a French High Command that isn’t thinking of how can they survive a German attack and are thinking how can they defeat a German attack, they’ll be thinking of how they can attack Germany while Germany is occupied with fighting Poland or they’ll be prepared to invade the Rhineland when Czechoslovakia is threatened or the Rhineland re-occupied.
 
The big problem with proposals of significant changes is that they change things significantly. If you have a French High Command that isn’t thinking of how can they survive a German attack and are thinking how can they defeat a German attack, they’ll be thinking of how they can attack Germany while Germany is occupied with fighting Poland or they’ll be prepared to invade the Rhineland when Czechoslovakia is threatened or the Rhineland re-occupied.


they could at least learn from Poland and Finland and began a crash program to build a viable air defense network and expand their anti tank park as fast as humanly possible (like modify the carriages of 75mm guns and equip them with ap shells)
 
The big problem with proposals of significant changes is that they change things significantly. If you have a French High Command that isn’t thinking of how can they survive a German attack and are thinking how can they defeat a German attack, they’ll be thinking of how they can attack Germany while Germany is occupied with fighting Poland or they’ll be prepared to invade the Rhineland when Czechoslovakia is threatened or the Rhineland re-occupied.

Which is one reason that my idea focuses on how what is originally seen as a screw-up by both sides is what changes things, minimizing overall changes. The French *aren't* expecting an armored formation to do much, which is why they're putting it near their lesser-quality infantry. The Germans similarly aren't expecting the Chars to char them as badly as they do.
 
B1 has good armor - impervious to everything except the Mark IV at close range.
Actually, since a single B1 took out 2 Mark IVs at close range (along with 11 Mk IIIs and 2 PaK 36 AT guns) in the Battle of Stonne, I have my doubts even about this. The armour's about the only thing these tanks have going for them though.
 
Last edited:
Actually, since a single B1 took out 20 Mark IVs at close range (along with 11 Mk IIIs and 2 Pak 36 AT guns) in the Battle of Stonne, I have my doubts even about this.[/SIZE][/FONT] The armour's about the only thing these tanks have going for them though.

they had 2 high velocity guns which could knock out panzers from 500 meters and beyond

the only german weapon which could knock out the b1 reliably was the 88mm aa gun
 
How do the Allies win in May 1940? No earlier changes? That means no changing the French command structure which would have been an outstanding idea in my opinion.
There were reconnaissance reports from French pilots of large German vehicle formations moving up to the Ardennes at night, one being 70 miles long. If these reports are acted upon in a more timely manner, or at all, the French have a number of divisions, including at least one armoured division, in the area behind the Ardennes. They could begin moving these divisions up to the far side of the Ardennes earlier than they did and have them in position to at least slow down the German breakthrough, if not halt it. If that action buys the Allies 2-3 days, they’ll at least have more time to react to the threat at Sedan. Stall the German breakthrough and maybe force a stalemate. That’s my attempt to answer the OP.
This answer goes off my memory of William Shirer’s book The Collapse of the Third Republic which details in some (900+ pages) depth on what caused France to fall in 1940. That book is an excellent read if you want background, or just if you’re a historian. If there’s any questions/quibbles, I’ll dig it out. Any mistakes in this post are my faulty memory.
 
Dug the book out, did some more reading.

On May 14th, the 1st and 2nd Panzer Divisions of Guderian’s 19th Panzer Corps had broken through the French 55th Infantry Division on the Meuse at Sedan. French reinforcements consisting of the 3rd Armoured and 3rd Motorised Divisions were moving up from the south and were ordered to counterattack this breakthrough. Their attack was to begin at 4pm. At 3pm, 1st & 2nd Panzer wheeled west and began their charge to the sea. At 3.30pm, the French corps commander cancelled the counterattack and ordered 3rd Armoured to disperse and block the way south.
What if the parlous state of French communications prevents this order being relayed? At 4pm on May 14th, one armoured and one motorised division hit the exposed flank of two panzer divisions. Against them is one exhausted infantry regiment (Gross-Deutschland). This gives them an excellent chance to destroy the first German breakthrough. Maybe that puts enough stiffening into the French generals so they stand and fight.
 
This is one of my favorite What-ifs, and I game it every chance I get. I have played two WW2 by e-mail games in which France almost pulled it out.

In the first, the Germans attacked as historically, but the breakthrough was narrow. On one side was a powerful French force, on the other, the entire Belgian army and the BEF. Orders were given to pinch the gap shut.

And the next turn (June 1940), the BEF bugged out. They left in full retreat, throwing the Belgian lines into disarray, clogging the harbors at Antwerp, and assuring the victory of the Germans. Grr.

In the second game, the French attacked into the Augsburg area and gained some ground before stalemating for the winter. In the Spring, the French thrust forth and took Cologne. Orders were given for a knockout punch past Saarbrucken, but the Germans had regrouped, and they beat the French to the punch by six days.

*sigh*

I blame it on the bias of the German GameMaster. :)

In no way do I think the Fall of France is inevitable. So let's wave our hands. It's 1941, and the Germans have been unable to bring about the capitulation of the Allies. What happens next?
 

Archibald

Banned
Just crush feldweld Rubarth and its handful of soliders at Sedan on May 13, 1940.
Then the German bridgehead is never established, the french bring more troups on the bank of the Meuse soon thereafter.
Of course the Germans attack again the next day, but surprise is lost, while french elite troops and tanks are brought back from Stone and Le Mont Dieu, only 15 km away (the Battle of Stone was called a 1940 Verdun by the Wermacht. It says all).

I did an atempt at such a TL months ago (but I'm better at space timelines anyway).
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=153741
 
Just crush feldweld Rubarth and its handful of soliders at Sedan on May 13, 1940.
Then the German bridgehead is never established, the french bring more troups on the bank of the Meuse soon thereafter.
Of course the Germans attack again the next day, but surprise is lost, while french elite troops and tanks are brought back from Stone and Le Mont Dieu, only 15 km away (the Battle of Stone was called a 1940 Verdun by the Wermacht. It says all).

I did an atempt at such a TL months ago (but I'm better at space timelines anyway).
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=153741

Crushing Balck's regiment on the meuse would have only been a local victory since the germans effected 3 other major crossings; also, tanks did attack Balck's bridgehead, and stuka's came; found the french (as usual) without AA protection and drove them off... balck didn't even have any AT guns; nothing heavier than an MG-34 and he surived an attack by an armored battalion with 34ish tanks
 
Top